[00:00] it will use the value at x's bfield [00:00] so this moves the full instruction x to ? [00:00] to x+bfield x [00:01] ahh nice. [00:01] thanks for the clarifucation [00:01] no problem. check out {,},<,> too while you are at it [00:02] those are predecrement xor postincrement indirects [00:02] I get those, do operation, and then inc or dec the respective a or b field. [00:02] curlies being afield, arrows bfield [00:02] alright :) [00:02] now it affects the field of which instruction? [00:03] the current instruction being executed/ [00:03] no [00:04] Can you make an example? [00:04] mov 1, >1 [00:05] so that moves the current instruction one ahead, and increments the b field by one in that instruction becoming move 1, 2? [00:05] it increments the bfield 1 ahead [00:05] not its own [00:06] so if that was on address 0, address 0 now has mov 1, >1, and address 1 has mov1, >2 ? [00:06] also notice that where the next instruction is placed is dependant on the value of that next instruction's bfield [00:06] @ is a subset of <,> functionality [00:07] meaning that both < and > mean indirect addressing of the operand's bfield [00:08] < will change that bfield before it is used for the instruction [00:08] > after [00:08] mov 1, >1, moves instruction at 1 to the address in 1's bfield [00:08] right? [00:08] analogous to {,} and * [00:08] yes [00:08] ok i think I got it now :) [00:08] and increments 1's befield afterwards [00:09] and then, that instruction will be executed. [00:09] don't go that far [00:09] lol. [00:09] ;) [00:11] oo i got the best idea. REVERSE IMP! [00:11] lol. [00:11] im sure its been done :) ? [02:14] its not really possible actually [02:14] as the instruction pointer is counting the wrong way.. [02:15] Heh [02:15] gotta use two moves and a jump [02:15] You'd have to slow it down alot by jumping [02:16] yea it would not run at 1c [02:34] I think I'm going to work on a new warrior tonight.. [02:34] I'm still a newb right, so I can submit to 94b : ) ? [02:34] Ox9O, Are you new? [02:48] yea [02:48] ive never coded before. [02:48] well, for redcode. [02:48] im an x86 asm vet, and ive done alot of work on smartcards and atmel microcontrollers [02:51] Ah I see [02:51] I kind of have the same thing going, but I have been playing CW for a while [02:51] Got 7th in the 2005 tourney, my first tourney! I mised like crazy, though... [02:52] Do you understand all the strategies and such? [02:53] not really [02:53] i get the basic idea [02:54] I see [02:55] it took me about a month to grasp everything and understand how to integrate stuff into my code easily [02:55] i know how the instructions work, I know the objective, just havent seen active programs or current strategies [03:04] I dont know where to start :) [03:16] Join: brx_ joined #corewars [03:18] MSG: Read error: Operation timed out [03:34] so what should I do to write my first program? [03:38] Nick Change: brx_ changed nick to brx [03:39] Ox9O: that depensd [03:39] *depends [03:39] on [03:39] what you want to do primarily. redcode or learning how to compete [03:40] I want to do my best to be on top. [03:40] well both ways can lead there, one faster than the other [03:40] study warriors of other people. [03:40] learn the strategies [03:41] of course that will spoil the fun of discovering all that on your own [03:41] ok well I like fun :) [03:42] discovering it on your own is painful however and the realization that you should probably read all existing redcode material comes quicker :) [03:42] s/redcode/corewars [03:42] you learn redcode in a few hours. corewars takes longer. [03:42] ive read all the info links on koth.org [03:43] I'd suggest picking a strategy and trying to make your own warrior of the same type [03:43] I started with stones, as they are easiest (imo) [03:43] datagram: that implies knowing about strategies [03:43] what seems to be most effective? [03:43] stone > scissor > paper > stone is pretty simple... [03:44] I had a paper design in my head before I knew what paper was. [03:44] Heh [03:44] whats a scissor [03:44] Ox9O: actually most do :) [03:44] Scanners, mostly [03:44] scanners/vampires/etc [03:44] and whats a stone. [03:44] bomber [03:45] Ox9O: self replication is what pops into most minds first when they learn about the concept behind corewars and redcode. not surprisingly it is one of the less interesting strategies imho [03:45] well not necessary replication but infection. [03:46] basically a paper vamp? [03:46] aaah vampires and brainwashers are more about infection [03:46] Yeah papers aren't my fav [03:46] Vampires pwn, but not many good ones in existence [03:46] I think the concept behind it is the coolest [03:46] well not easy to make a good vampire. [03:46] Yeah [03:47] i dont know much about the defenses either [03:47] Defense in the traditional sense is kind of impossible [03:47] Its more about evasion [03:48] Because you can't stop someone from overwriting your instructions, but you can do your best to evade that [05:57] So... [06:04] so [06:06] yes. [06:09] yea. [06:16] i'm a leaf on the wind, watch me soar [06:16] ;) [06:56] im three sheets to the wind, watch me hurl [06:59] Join: fiveop joined #corewars [07:02] hey flip [07:02] guten morgen :) [07:02] thats german for good morning [07:02] true enough [07:03] it's 8am in germany [07:03] its 2am in virginia [07:18] Join: Mizcu joined #corewars [08:33] Join: Roy joined #corewars [09:33] good morning to both of you (miz, roy) [09:41] Morning. [09:42] mornin [09:42] aww... I need a drink [09:43] I feel like I'm having a huge hangover.. but I didn't drink anything yesterday :S [09:49] you need a drink? [09:49] at this time of day? [09:49] (I had a beer 1 hour ago) [09:51] I need to drink some coke or just water, not A drink :) [09:52] Drinking alcohol in the morning while working when feeling hungover but didn't drink isn't a good idea IMHO [09:52] :) [09:53] well you are probably right [09:53] are you tired roy? [09:54] ftp://solace.is-a-geek.org/dump/catslov2Ubuntu_original.jpg [09:56] Very tired... :-( not sleeping well [09:56] Roy: then that picture might cheer you up a little :) [09:58] it's a very nice photo [09:58] Its cute ;-) [09:58] :) [10:01] also check ubuntu_shot.png [10:02] I used to despise gnome for all ist bloat. now I love it for its simplicity. (though I still prefer to work in openbox/ion3) [10:02] s/ist/its [10:06] I'm not a *ix user anymore, just too easy to go for windows, and I only have one machine [10:06] I used to have blackbox once.. [10:06] (talking about simplicity) [10:07] yes, fluxbox is a blackbox rewrite I believe, openbox is a conceptual relative [10:08] ion3 goes a wholly different (yet interesting) way. check the manifesto at http://www.modeemi.fi/~tuomov/ion/ even if you are a windows user :) [10:14] non overlapping..hmm.. [10:16] it is really great for coding work [10:16] where you have multiple terminals open to check for this and that etc [10:17] or emacs with multiple windows open [10:20] it is fully scriptable with lua too. [10:21] there is rellay only one thing I would really want to see what isn't in windows, and thats a single-command line always available to type in [10:21] Just one line, and when you enter something it shows a screen with the output(s) [10:21] *really [10:23] oh you have that in gnome ;) [10:23] you want to enter command lines in windows? [10:23] uhm yes (for some odd reason :)) [10:23] All CW programming I do is in windows [10:24] and thats all commandline (pmars.exe) [10:25] And I use commandline ftp to upload all my stuff [10:25] ah, I see. I don't know. with distros like ubuntu catching up to window's ease of installation and the low entry barriers I don't see any reason to use windows besides playing games or somesuch [10:26] Well, sometimes games, and its just easier.. all programs I have are now for windows [10:26] there are so many things I am now used to (like extensive use of cli) that switching back to windows would be a very very bad choice [10:26] since using cli programs or simple text based programs is rather odd in windows. [10:27] hm how is it easier? [10:29] Switching is just hard, switching from Win to Linux or the other way around [10:29] true enough. [10:30] My primesearching program is windows, Eclipse with all plugins are installed on windows, messenger, outlook, it'll take a while to 1. install and get it running on a new enviroment and 2. get used to working with it [10:31] having switched from windows to linux ~2.5 years ago I feel like everything I had back then, I still have (and am not restricted to a single fit-all solution as windows might make you believe) and gained a measure of control I would never have achieved otherwise [10:32] it dramatically changes ones view on software too [10:33] the typical windows user believes that for any semi-trivial he'd like to do, he has to *buy* a product. or use shareware which is often inferior. [10:33] +thing [10:35] once you become accustomed to linux, *bsd or similar, you discover that quality software is being written en masse, free to use, modify, redistribute. [10:36] and that it entails a degree of freedom. it was the first time I felt like I could actually *choose* which software to run. :) [10:41] But it makes choosing the right product harder :) (my experience) [10:41] Just ask some linux-users what kind of install I should choose to step from windows to linux, they'll give me about 10 options [10:42] kind of install meaning distribution? [10:42] err yes :) (not down with the lingo ;-)) [10:42] Distributions both help and hurt linux [10:43] They show how free people are too choose and customize but they saturate the market [10:43] actually I believe most would tell you to choose ubuntu if they wanted you to have a painless experience [10:43] Second choice: What kind of windowmanager... [10:43] ubuntu takes away that choice from the start [10:43] All those choices :) [10:43] gnome is default. [10:43] it's probably the easiest linux distro around currently, though I can not speak for suse [10:43] or mandrake or redhat :) [10:44] Fedora is probably easier [10:44] And more compatible [10:44] you think so? [10:44] redhat :/ [10:44] I only use Slackware if I can get away with it [10:44] I ran slack 9 on my router [10:44] Had to touch a RHEL at work the other day [10:44] omg dirty [10:45] I try to recompile the kernel and it wouldn't boot [10:45] sorry, i'm lost, "RHEL" ? [10:45] And for like 2 hours I wanted to shoot myself not knowing why [10:45] Red Hat Enterprise Linux [10:45] well fedora is based on redhat at least [10:45] I figured maybe RHEL has some funky way of installing the kernel [10:45] that entails rpms [10:45] and those entail pain [10:45] But alas, it runs a fucking old version of mkinitrd and that botches the kernel [10:46] :) [10:46] Drove me crazy like WTF RUN YOU BASTARD [10:46] Roy: what is interesting is that windows users' favorite seemed to be gentoo before ubuntu stepped up [10:46] and, well, while ubuntu tries to hide text as much as possible [10:46] What...? [10:47] No one likes gentoo [10:47] I've had RedHad with Fluxbox a couple of years ago, but the pc was just too old to install anything on that was intresting (386) [10:47] gentoo just SPAMS [10:47] Windows users cant go from windows to gentoo easily [10:47] I think atm either Fedora or Debian is the most popular distro [10:47] "watching tons of cryptic text scroll by makes me a linux expert overnight" [10:47] datagram: they liked it [10:47] Weirdos [10:47] Gentoo is pretty much a crash course in linux though...and that's just to install it [10:47] Roy: ah [10:48] datagram: somewhat [10:48] I like this bash quote... [10:48] datagram: www.funroll-loops.org (you must know that link) [10:48] let me get you funny ubuntu wiki pages, roy [10:48] <@insomnia> it only takes three commands to install Gentoo [10:48] <@insomnia> cfdisk /dev/hda && mkfs.xfs /dev/hda1 && mount /dev/hda1 /mnt/gentoo/ && chroot /mnt/gentoo/ && env-update && . /etc/profile && emerge sync && cd /usr/portage && scripts/bootsrap.sh && emerge system && emerge vim && vi /etc/fstab && emerge gentoo-dev-sources && cd /usr/src/linux && make menuconfig && make install modules_install && emerge gnome mozilla-firefox openoffice && emerge grub && cp /boot/grub/grub.co [10:48] nf.sample /boot/grub/grub.conf && vi /boot/grub/grub.conf && grub && init 6 [10:48] <@insomnia> that's the first one [10:52] datagram: gentoo is screwed [10:55] Lol [10:57] sigh can't find the funny ones [11:00] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EvaluateUbuntuGuide?highlight=%28jane%29%7C%28switches%29 [11:00] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NonBroadbandUsers?highlight=%28bob%29%7C%28turns%29 [11:00] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SplashDown?highlight=%28splash%29 [11:01] Not now, I'm working man :) Well, actually just reading about java optimization [11:01] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UsplashInitramfs?highlight=%28bob%29%7C%28waits%29 [11:02] Roy: also for datagram [11:02] heh ;-) [11:02] read the Use Cases only, not much :) [11:07] I'm now on a website, and it recommends changes to speed up java per class, and in almost every class he writes: Well, you can better just rewrite the class with synchronized methods if you are using it single thread [11:07] why the ** doesn't java just have those functions :) [11:08] Doing things unsynchronized java has to lock the objects thus slowing down [11:13] not really sure what synchronization you are talking about there. I am happy not to be in a situation which requires of me to learn java [11:13] -me [11:13] my fear is that it might happen sooner than I'd like [11:16] Screw java [11:16] Java isn't as bad as most people say it is.. [11:17] But its just trying to be all kinds of things at the same time [11:20] Maybe not as bad as some people say, but pretty bad. [11:20] : ) [11:21] Roy: I have learned the ancient ways. [11:21] it's different. :) [11:23] I'm using it now everyday, and I'm liking it more and more [11:23] (or am I just forgetting the rest?) [11:23] you have not learned lisp, I take it? :) [11:23] I will probably learn java too. [11:24] probably even out of my own volition for topcoder maybe [11:24] i have the strong feeling that it is going to be horrible though :) [11:24] Nah.. [11:25] nah? [11:25] I will spare myself the pain and just stick my finger directly into a light socket [11:26] oh come on. java is better than c++ at least [11:27] Oh you get out [11:27] C++ is probably the best all around language available [11:28] datagram: it has no garbage collection, that is why it flat out loses up front. [11:28] http://lispmeister.com/blog/citations/happy-java.html [11:28] Pussy! [11:28] :P [11:30] just being realistic here. there are some obvious political reasons to dislike java. on the technical side it is better than c++. :) [11:31] however, that doesn't say much really :) [11:49] Join: katafutr joined #corewars [11:49] MSG: Client Quit [12:34] The only big issue I have with Java (not really about the language, more the IDE) is that Eclipse doesn't have a profiler for J2ME [12:57] I knew a guy who loved java because of the ides. [12:57] actually, I know lots [12:59] "Although my own previous enthusiasm has been for syntactically rich languages, like the Algol family, I now see clearly and concretely the force of Minsky's 1970 Turing Lecture, in which he argued that Lisp's uniformity of structure and power of self reference gave the programmer capabilities whose content was well worth the sacrifice of visual form." [13:00] and [13:00] "Programming languages should be designed not by piling feature on top of feature, but by removing the weaknesses and restrictions that make the additional features appear necessary." [13:10] Well, Eclipse itself is nice, and EclipseME (for J2ME) is good too [13:10] But EclipseME is the bridge between Eclipse and the Wireless Toolkits [13:11] Now does the Wireless toolkit have a profiler, but EclipseME can't handle it :( [13:13] * brx shudders [13:15] http://www.javaworld.com.tw/jute/post/view?bid=26&id=51494&sty=1&tpg=7&age=0 [13:15] You don't happen to speak chinese do ya? :) [13:17] no. [13:29] muenster.pollen-info [13:35] ? [13:35] newsgroup... [13:35] yes, and..? [13:36] it has a funny name [13:36] My german isn't so good, so I don't know :P [13:37] it's a finnish object file [14:29] yay! profiler working now, and closed our first major leak :-) [14:29] (stupid other intern, not programming good :() [14:50] Join: await joined #corewars [14:50] * await waves [14:52] * await = asw [15:04] roy: there is also kubuntu, so you can still choose between gnome and kde ;) [15:12] I'm not planning on switching just yet, I only have my laptop, and there is just toomuch garbage on there to just start over again :( [15:13] Maybe if I get a new pc/laptop [15:16] MSG: Quit: Leaving [15:42] Join: Metcalf joined #corewars [15:42] Hi [15:43] Hi [15:44] Stranges google ads on your links page Roy [15:49] MSG: [15:59] Heh, I'll have a look :) [16:00] Here is gives all links about asm [16:00] Does it? [16:00] What does yours give? [16:00] It was all links about viruses a little while ago [16:00] Heh, corewar == virus :-P [16:00] Gotta go, heading home! [16:00] MSG: [16:01] * Metcalf waves [16:04] * asw waves [16:05] Hi Asw [16:05] hi john [16:05] Is the quantum coreworld stuff fully online again now? [16:05] Cover story of January's SciAm is about the PGP. I've taken a little break to help with that project... [16:06] Encryption? [16:06] nah. the "$1000 genome" [16:06] I like this article: http://www.nature.com/msb/journal/v1/n1/full/msb4100040.html [16:07] all the CPUs will run QCW when idle. [16:07] maybe hundreds or even thousands. [16:07] (btw. author of both the Nature MSB article and SciAm article is my mentor.) [16:08] expect the QCW "fully online" by March. :) [16:09] actually I'll be resubmitting that MSc (I never revised it) so your help will be appreciated (if you have the time to read hte next draft and try out the new system.) [16:09] I saw it on the cover, but didn't read the article [16:09] Yes, I will make time [16:09] it's basically what I described last March but it will actually work this time. :) [16:09] But I am not sure if I will have anything useful to say [16:09] (rather than a proposal sort of thing.) [16:09] maybe you'll write some coreworld warriors. :) [16:09] that would be very useful. :) [16:10] Hmmm... yes if there is something I can read which explains exactly how to use those quantum opcodes ;-) [16:10] well. my guess is that strong classical warriors will easily dominate in the short term... [16:11] maybe in the medium and long term also. That's why it's research after all. Outcome isn't obvious. [17:00] heya [17:00] Hi Bvowk [17:01] how's it going? [17:02] Okay thanks. How about for you? [17:02] Circles? [17:02] distant third now.. [17:03] they took two of my records! [17:03] (bastards!) [17:03] I peaked at 268 machines tho [17:03] didn't help as much as I hoped [17:03] :-( [17:04] Hopefully the next contest will be something I'd like to have a go at. [17:36] Join: Roy joined #corewars [17:36] I'll also keep a eye out for the next contest [17:37] Hello again [17:37] Well, I've beaten you JM, thats a whole victory for me ;-) [17:38] :-( [17:39] What are your individual results? [17:41] heh [17:41] Indiv results? you want a list of the best submissions? [17:42] You have the best smallest, I concentrated on the bigger ones :-) [17:42] Not sure why you're laughing bvowk. Your 268 computers didn't even do twice as well as I did in couple of hours by hand :-P [17:42] Well, I made one big one and just removed the smallest one [17:42] 44 199.5649280617160503657044907012163174515063 [17:42] 45 204.5307596822330991839355500036262297717734 [17:42] 46 209.4965913027501480021666093060361420920407 [17:42] 47 214.5835278796773109451025935355503404570609 [17:42] 48 219.7825826577306838980547156548744371338316 [17:42] 49 225.3054657768732682778242359428022451137377 [17:42] 50 231.0463605506382650158929276243732857132425 [17:43] 231 > pretty good by hand I think! :-) [17:43] How about the smaller results? [17:43] Err.. [17:43] 5 9.0101367636090020083409725758725364309653 [17:43] 6 11.1023901160234699786359197591430455448587 [17:43] 7 14.2804873528411512320685240552397452520812 [17:43] 8 16.5045296845214141143181714036033477228648 [17:43] 9 20.0592716624837745866633474721609299868447 [17:43] 10 23.2810764104808218263294505324855769708172 [17:43] 11 27.5072236560899119352356025954122962704462 [17:43] 12 30.0632453482952712996826633746589526265489 [17:43] You? [17:44] 5 9.0025911607357551850809894243141284254041 [17:44] 6 11.0798022571255477121007560488413133989305 [17:44] 7 14.8052140324534590050250418211872400114160 [17:44] 8 17.4842363778100453254329454600050243238273 [17:44] 9 23.4418539028087739791920503018255221978171 [17:44] 10 23.6139149538085371101867119291481150610950 [17:44] 11 26.5330974832595551439490265422460370648736 [17:44] :-( [17:44] Your 9th is a bit high [17:46] And now your list bvowk ;-) [17:46] it'll just make you sad [17:47] No it won't... I made those in one day, you had like 268 computers for a month :-P [17:47] no.. I've only had 268 computers for the last day or so [17:47] ok, 200 then :) [17:47] I was only bumbling along with 150 some most of the time [17:48] Even that is 150 times more then I had ;-) [17:49] my 5 is 9.001397 [17:52] So? :P [17:52] Is that all you've got?? [17:52] I asked he who cannot be mentioned if I could paste more.. [17:52] I'll be happy to paste them after the contest ends tho [17:53] hehe, I don't think it'll make any difference.. you can't see much from the scores I think [17:53] But maybe the full scores will be available when the contest ends! [17:56] Join: Mizcu joined #corewars [17:59] JM: congrats on the new cw-prime, didn't say it before I think [18:00] My primes aren't comming along well, I've checked 2409 up to 381000 [18:01] Thanks :-) [18:01] 2409? [18:01] ok, got to go now, father-in-law birthday :( [18:01] yup [18:01] * Metcalf waves [18:01] 24-09 -> gf birthday, mine is even :( [18:01] :-) [18:01] * Roy waves [18:01] MSG: [18:01] Mine is even too :-( [18:15] Join: Fluffy joined #corewars [18:15] :) [18:15]