[05:22] Join: fiveop joined #corewars [08:06] Join: Velma joined #corewars [08:07] Hello. [08:50] part [08:50] Ah crap. [08:51] Part: Velma left #corewars [11:14] Join: Core29 joined #corewars [12:53] MSG: Quit: Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com [14:33] MSG: Read error: Operation timed out [14:48] Join: datagram joined #corewars [15:59] MSG: Ping timeout: 252 seconds [16:11] Join: fiveop joined #corewars [16:19] hrm [17:01] Join: Roy joined #corewars [17:26] hrm. [17:26] 5.25B nano warriors? [17:32] Bit overkill..? :) [17:32] heh [17:32] * bvowk does everything with a little overkill [17:35] hrm, so if you've got 512b per nano warrior.. that'd be 2.8TB worth of warriors [17:36] although, really, it's only 60 bytes per warrior [17:36] assuming you use just bare exhaust encoded instructions [17:36] thats <500GB :) [17:37] while it would be possible to exhaust the nano space, I guess it wouldn't really be possible to score that many warriors.. [17:37] you'd need a score matrix of 5.25B*5.25B for a full hill [17:38] I wonder if you could do it with a few smaller sample hills however.. [17:38] so you could have 4 or 5 sample hill scores, and then shrink the matrix to only the ones you expect to not outright suck [17:38] might be possible to really consider the entire nano keyspace if you had enough time, space and computrons [17:39] * Roy just types some code and is on top now :P [17:39] heh [17:39] About 5 lines.. [17:40] don't make me go all the way over there just to kick you for that comment [17:40] Sigh, I'm learning for my JSCP (Java 5 certification) and bought the best book.. just made the test on the cd (72 questions) and 4!! of them are wrong :-S (wrong > tested with the Java 5 compiler!) [17:40] got some serious pushdown on my poor warriors.. [17:41] eek.. you poor guy.. java rots the mind. [17:41] boilerplate makes baby jesus cry, that sort of thing [17:41] Its ok.. Java isn't so bad as you make it look [17:42] bah, when companies have to start shipping their own JVM's with their code to make sure their code actually runs like it is supposed to.. [17:42] you know somethings askew [17:43] so much software I have to install now has its own supported jvm that ships with it, and you have to use *THAT* one. [17:43] otherwise it doesn't work [17:43] hrm, thats pretty weird yeah.. I never had problems (yet) with a JVM [17:43] Maybe they are just trying to do stuff thats not meant to be done.. (or something) [17:45] they're trying to write a large software package in an abomination. [17:45] (meaning the thing they're doing that is not meant to be done, is writing code in java) [17:45] :) [17:46] Well, Java is just C++ with a lot left out and hidden to make it easier to read.. [17:48] not really. [17:51] Why not..? [17:51] Well ok, it uses a JVM and running optimizer etc [17:51] all slow fancy non OS independed stuff [17:54] yeah, but its not really OS independant.. because they need to ship different, specially patched and verified JVM's with any reasonably capable software package [17:55] so really, it just adds another layer of support problems on top to the software they're actually writing. [17:56] Well ok, but still...there is (in writing) a lot of similarities to c++ [17:58] And they are still adding nice things to Java, especially with the autoboxing and new generics [18:00] yeah, but there is so much coming and going from java, not even the people who are writing it can keep up with the churn [18:00] part of why people need to ship a known version of java with their software [18:02] Join: NanoKing joined #corewars [18:02] MSG: Read error: Connection reset by peer [18:02] Nick Change: NanoKing changed nick to roy [18:02] Nick Change: roy changed nick to Roy [18:03] As far as I know all changes in Java are backwards compatible [18:03] except when they're not [18:03] or when the call is still happy and valid, but does something subtly different [18:04] Nah, it has priorities, old code works just like it always has [18:04] or even better, when everything is still the same, but the JVM does something different on different platforms :) [18:04] if that were true, I wouldn't hate java :) [18:05] Well thats evil and odd.. (and not so common imo) but in C++ you would need to rewrite lots of code :P [18:05] yes, but it worked.. [18:06] fe, matlab: the full C versions still work perfectly on everything.. which also means I can install the linux version on freebsd and openbsd boxes without any issues at all. [18:06] everything works pretty much perfectly. [18:06] the java versions, because its tied to one JVM, because thats the one that works (and for some of the packages people run, the only one) that works.. [18:07] the old version runs perfectly on boxes with tiny amounts of ram, and makes useful computations on those boxes.. [18:07] the java version requires as much as 150MB of ram PER USER.. [18:07] Nah Java can't be THAT ugly [18:07] and for the most part only works on linux.. [18:08] or windows.. [18:08] and the computations it can be impossible for some older machines to do.. [18:08] when in theory, there should be no different in the computational complexity [18:08] Join: Core29 joined #corewars [18:09] the even sadder part, you go to a 64bit platform, the memory requirements DOUBLE. [18:09] Hehehe [18:09] matlab on sparc/x86-64 is 2x more beefy [18:09] Well ok, lets all move to RoR [18:09] it does nothing extra [18:09] but costs *WAY*WAY* more.. and works on fewer platforms (because the jvm is really deeply tied to the Os and the code) [18:11] and while there are many tools I can use on a windows/unix box to figure out where calls are going wrong, and in some cases patch the issue by wrapping some differing library functions using some lib-fu... thats impossible with java.. [18:12] or at least ugly and difficult, assuming you can get to the actual error at all [18:12] Ok, so in the future, what do we use? :) [18:12] usually something goes horribly wrong behind the front end, and leaves you with this huge wad of XML entrails to examine to see if you can figure out where it all went wrong.. [18:12] Most companies use .NET or Java now [18:13] I'm hoping we'll take a backwards step from adding never ending layers of complexity.. [18:13] Thats why new languages start :( clean and they start adding and die out.. [18:13] otherwise we will never be able to have the security, reliability and auditing ability that is really required if we're going to depend on these mahcines. [18:14] anyways.. thats my java rant :) [18:14] I think its the same in all languages, they start relativly simple, people like it and use it. People all expect more advanced options, the language adds them making it more complex and slower etc, and eventuelly it dies out [18:15] well, even 1.0 of java was way too big [18:15] and ugly [18:15] Ok, some languages start out obesive :) [18:18] Never really looked at Ruby (on Rails) but there are some really nice videos [18:18] http://www.rubyonrails.org/screencasts [20:10] MSG: Quit: humhum [20:31] Hrm, why do the hills (SAL for example) don't have RSS feeds yet? [20:31] I dunno [20:31] Shouldn't be so hard to implement, easy to use though [20:32] because no-one has set one up. [20:32] or asked for one [20:33] Well, now somebody asked for it ;-) [20:34] And it would be like 5minutes work for you guys I guess.. [20:34] One loop through the database and formatting it into rss :) [20:35] I just pasted that to him.. he's going to come here and hurt you now I think.. [20:35] * bvowk looks for cover [20:36] eek! [20:36] * Roy hides [20:36] heh [20:36] yeah.. ok. i've some free time in november for feature [20:36] requests. [20:36] lol [20:37] * Roy can wait that long.. [20:37] Its just easy to see the RSS instead of having to go to the site and manually click and look at the hills (to see in 99% of the time nothing has changed) [20:38] And it would make things like a irc-bot which announces updates/challenges easier (not that I'm working on that again now) [20:38] don't even go there :P [20:39] we do *NOT* need irc bots in here [20:39] Well, if its only task would be msg'ing the intrested people a new warrior hit some hill or another... then it would be ok? :P [20:39] Join: fiveop joined #corewars [20:40] It doesn't even have to be in this room..! [20:40] jetzt vom desktop [20:40] wt [20:40] :P [20:40] finally got ubuntu running on my desktop [20:40] my condolances :) [20:41] better than windows however [20:41] why do you dislike ubuntu? [20:42] because its linux, and linux is a blob of generally poorly fitting together bits masquerading as a complete OS :) [20:42] hm [20:42] bvowk is just feeling a bit 'anti' today, don't mind him :P [20:42] I'm a much bigger fan of BSD, where you get an kernel and userland that fit together nice and neatly [20:42] I guess that maindly depends on the distribution you use [20:42] -d [20:43] How about MINIX 3? [20:43] not really.. they're all based around an the (inaccurate) assumption that you can make a separate kernel-land and user-land fit together all pretty like [20:43] its hell to upgrade :) [20:44] and you've gotta use glibc.. ick. [20:44] its huge, and gets bigger and uglier each release.. [20:44] my experience with debian/ubuntu differs [20:44] hell, glibc is bigger than some complete BSD releases [20:45] yes, but thats because they've made a huge bit of difficult to maintain glue to keep you from noticing its hell to upgrade. [20:45] although I suppose, thats good enough for most people :) [20:46] But Windows updates are so swell, just push one button and its done, (and you might need one reboot)...! [20:46] heh [20:46] and sometimes they even fix the bugs they say they are! :) [20:47] Rarely. but true [20:47] But well, most OS have security problems, its just not as intresting to find as Microsoft.. [20:48] well, microsoft has most of their problems because of 2 things: 1) they integrated something as mind-numbingly complex as a web-browser into the lowest level of their OS.. [20:49] its really impossible to prove the security of a web-browser, because there are enough edge cases and special situations to play with you could be fuzzing until the universe died of heat death and you wouldn't have tested it all.. [20:49] and 2) they have millions and millions of vendor written drivers that all get to sit inside the kernel.. [20:50] with absolutely no auditing or real QA requirements. [20:50] (yes, I know they've got a tiny nod in that direction because of the "works with windows" program, but really, lets not pretend.) [20:50] they should force nvidia to opensource their drivers! :P [20:50] heh [20:50] that'd really be nice [20:50] Well, but because it has those millions of vendor written drivers...millions of people use it. Its not so much a security problem, its a marketing move.. [20:51] yeah, except now you've got a system you cannot ever possibly prove secure. [20:52] But do most of the users care..? The numbers speak mostly for themselfs, its easy to blame MS, but can you blame them for people buying their software [20:53] bvowk: what's the most dau friendly bsd distribution? [20:53] I like freebsd [20:54] openbsd is well done, and simplistic [20:54] I'm not asking what yyou like, but what would my mother like [20:54] so you can figure out the whole thing really quickly [20:54] choose the one which has the better propaganda, they are the same [20:54] (she likes her Mac with OSX) [20:54] (hides from bvowk) [20:54] I like OSX too.. [20:54] its very pretty [20:54] ... [20:54] and based around FreeBSD [20:55] but which bsd would you recommend to someone who doesn't know what the terms partition table and network interface refer to? [20:56] well, it you don't know the terminology of your machine, how do you expect to operate it? [20:57] its like running a tablesaw without knowing what "blade", "spinning" and "serious disfigurement or death" mean. [20:57] there are people who only want to know how to use an office application and a browser [20:57] and nothign else [20:57] well, there's the problem huh? [20:57] bvowk, thats a silly statement :p [20:57] no that's not a problem [20:57] everyone needs to communicate via email nowadays [20:58] no its not, you're using a machine that represents the most powerful and complex tools ever crafted by human hands, but yet you expect to be able to use it without training? [20:58] bvowk: Do you know how the insides of a car work, because you should if you want to drive one [20:58] thats silly. [20:58] do you want EVERYone to be able to set up a whatever-os-router installed from scratch in an ugly textmode installation envoirenment? [20:59] since when is function defined by the attractiveness of the install program? [20:59] roy: people wreck brakes and transmissions all the time by not knowing how to properly use them [20:59] ugly in terms of useabillity [21:00] the freebsd installer lets me customize pretty much every aspect of the install, the windows installer lets me pick if I want to put it in a dir named something other than windows.. [21:00] the freebsd installer lets me customize pretty much every aspect of the install, [21:00] and the Free installer can have me up and running in 8 minutes.. [21:00] the problem is [21:00] it takes 8 minutes to make it to the first screen in the windows installer! [21:00] it requires you to customize many things [21:01] no, it requires you to have a working knowledge of the terminology and workings of the operating system. [21:01] in some cases 'too' many things [21:01] IMO you don't have to be a OS expert to work with one.. [21:02] MSG: Quit: Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com [21:02] yes [21:02] And thats a good thing because when everybody knew what they did we'd all be out of jobs sooner or later (in the ICT) [21:02] you don't need to know how a radio-receiver works [21:02] you just turn it on, and listen to the music [21:02] same with a tv and much other things [21:03] do you know how to knit a pullover? [21:03] but you're wearing one! :P [21:03] thats silly however, because almost everything done by people in an office situation requires the use of a computer. and the major limiting factor to using that machine effectively is the utter and complete cluelessness of the operators. [21:03] And probably mis-using it ;) [21:03] so really, you're simply making excuses for people to be incompetent at work. [21:03] Almost everything in a office requires electricity, do you know how a powerplant works? [21:04] truck drivers have to know how to effectively use air brakes, and we require extra training to ensure that.. [21:04] no, but you don't need to give the powerplant specific instructions in order to get power to make your machine work. [21:04] you *DO* however need to know how to interact with the wildly complex computational device on your desk. [21:05] bvowk: you HAVE to give him specific instructions (depending on your OS :P) and THAT's the problem [21:05] that shouldn't be the case [21:05] . [21:05] But you don't have to know if it uses N-amount of cylinders [21:06] how is that the problem? its a universal tool for crunching numbers! [21:06] (I mean cycles/heads/sectors etc) [21:06] its an infinately reconfigurable device for computation.. [21:07] the fact you can reconfigure it to perform your task is its entire purpose for being. [21:07] For you it is.. but for others its a machine that lets you typ letters and play minesweeper [21:07] if you are unable to do that, you are failing to use the tool productively. [21:07] lol [21:07] fiveop: compare the pre-word processor world to the post word processor world... [21:08] A book author for example ... doesn't want to crunch numbers [21:08] do you want him to use a type writer? [21:08] in pre-word land, one machine could perform all the typesetting and layout requirements.. [21:08] and people could do it quickly, and in many cases, much of it was automated. [21:09] however, post word, suddenly we've got legions of data entry and click people.. [21:09] everything requires a half dozen clicks.. [21:09] nothing happens in a batch process.. [21:09] the fact that you can get any idiot to perform "word processing" duties on a PC now requires that you have many more PC's and idiots to run them [21:10] resulting the processes that get used to run a business being spotty, and the quality of execution being scattered all over the map [21:10] Roy: still here? [21:11] We are getting to the root, bvowk is just annoyed by dumb computer users [21:11] ;) [21:11] no, I'm annoyed by people who want to be sheltered from the complexity and the actual USEFUL features of the machine. [21:11] to sum up a) computers are the most complex and powerful tools ever created by the human race [21:12] but why can't you grasp, that there might be people that need to and only want to for example write ther stuff in word [21:12] But sheltering is kinda handy, do you program fluent assembly? why not? why do you use a sheltering tool/higher level programming language? [21:12] b) the very fact they are infinately reconfigurable and complex is the reason they are so powerful. [21:12] c) anyone who can expect to use the most complex and powerful tools of mankind without trainging and understanding is an idiot. [21:12] Maybe i should gather up a team to make an "IdiotOS" and conquer the OS-market [21:13] Bill beat you to it.. [21:13] d) being sheltered from the complexity and power of use is actually a limitation to productivity [21:13] bvowk: if your whole job consists of writing text (human readable text), which can't be automated ... where's to point in learning to use all that 'complex reconfigurability'? [21:13] Roy: i didnt mean "Idiot's OS" [21:13] bvowk should get some tranquilisers.. :) [21:14] Hehe [21:14] fiveop: because chances are you job of processing text could be done almost entirely by the machine, which would yield consistant and timely results more often than you (or the person who will have your job down the road) can [21:14] what he misses is nicely paraphrased in the german term 'blick über den tellerrand' [21:14] anyways. [21:15] bvowk: how would you let a machnie WRITE a drug study report? [21:15] for example [21:15] how much of it is really new material? a few thousands words worth? [21:16] but you're likely still picking which font you should use [21:16] there aren't any algorithms out there for like: give-me-the-studie-data-an-eu-drug-study-report-norms-and-what-so-ever-and-output-a-perfect-report-with-all-special-cases [21:17] I'm quite sure that this can't be automated in any way [21:17] yes, but thats not a computing job now is it? but instead of leaving the text formatting and output to the machine, people spend the time picking fonts, tweaking the table layouts, making the power-point to go with the paper have the right sounds. [21:17] No, according to bvowk you need to give somebody a full OS/computer breakdown, learn a couple of programming languages, then become drug expert, and then use MS Word, OR write with pen/paper [21:18] bvowk: that's not the case [21:18] Minimalism is a forgotten art [21:18] where really only the information matters, the rest is a cute layer on the top, that mostly just gets in the way of real work. [21:18] I know that my mother has setup every paragraph/text/whatever-style and doesn't have to do this by hand ... so you might say she's automated that stuff [21:18] but she doesn't know what a partition table is [21:19] and doesn't want to know ... [21:20] so whats the problem then? [21:20] oh wait, she can't maintain the tool she uses to do her work. [21:21] but rather than doing something I could respect a) taking it to a professional b) learning what she needs to do it herself, apparently she's asking for the machine to take the complexity away and do it all for her. [21:21] (I expect your mom just calls you to make it work however). [21:21] bvowk, if your mouse stops to respond, you can't maintain the tool you are working with either.. [21:21] I think it's more timeconsuming and expencive to teach all the people of that buisness for example, then to hire a system-admin [21:21] ;) [21:21] that's called specialisation [21:21] specialization [21:21] ? [21:21] dunno [21:21] something like that :P [21:22] so if she doesn't need to install her OS, why does it have to be idiot proof? [21:22] that's a good point! ;P [21:22] if you're going to hire a competent sysadmin, why not just run an OS that makes it possible to perfectly configure the system for the occasion? [21:23] you won :/ [21:23] if you're going to be your own sysadmin, you've got to learn the terminology to use your machine. [21:23] I rest my case :) [21:24] but it might be usefull to have an OS for homesystems that's very easy ... perhaps you could build less complex machines for only mailing and browsing of course [21:24] to install [21:25] Thats where those new Home Entertainement Systems jump in, browsing/music/video only [21:25] And games should be played on universally equal consoles [21:25] hm [21:25] yes [21:26] * Roy waves, has to throw his pc out of the windows now thanks to bvowk :( [21:26] :) [21:26] but keep in mind, the more each of those is supposed to do, the less it'll actually work... as the number of people in QA generally remains constant compared to the rapidly growing lines of code. [21:27] (assuming you've got a product like a game console) [21:27] Or mobile phone (good example imo) [21:27] yeah! [21:28] my phone fucking sucks ass! [21:28] I hate the damn thing. [21:28] I will engage bvowk as an consultant if I'll ever write some lines of code that I want to market in any comercial or non-comercial way :P [21:28] I don't have a mobile ;) [21:28] Heh, I wanted to buy the new Nokia N91, but it just takes time to boot it :-S silly.. [21:28] in fact, I had to use a knife and excise one of the buttons cause nobody thought you might wnat to put the damn thing in your pocket! [21:28] Roy: a handy that takes time to boot? [21:29] yeah, pretty long time to boot.. [21:29] lol? [21:29] But is has 4Gb [21:29] :-) [21:29] its a mobile [21:29] No, its more mp3-player with WiFi [21:30] And to annoy bvowk a little more, it runs Java! [21:30] it irritates me that my phone needs to have mp3, digital camera, java games, a web browser, etc etc etc etc.. when really, I use it at most a couple times a week to make voice calls, and text messages.. [21:30] and the fucking thing makes my thumbs hurt when I send text messages. [21:30] all blueray devices shall have a jvm buildin [21:31] I just got my first dvd device and soon there'll be the next technology [21:31] n8 [21:31] MSG: Quit: humhum [21:32] Heh, my parent bought a HD-recorder for the tv, pretty nice but also soon obsolete [21:32] * Roy waves too late [21:33] Cool, I didn't know SkypeOut is free in the US and Canada.. [21:34] Mobile phone with WiFi... free SkypeOut... national free WiFi net... soon we can speak to anybody for free, yay! :) [21:37] * Roy waves too [21:37] MSG: