[01:01] MSG: Quit: Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com [10:07] Join: Core_old joined #corewars [10:19] MSG: Ping timeout: 255 seconds [11:38] Join: Fluffy joined #corewars [11:40] :) [11:53] Join: Mizcu joined #corewars [11:53] MSG: Client Quit [11:53] Join: Mizcu joined #corewars [11:53] Hi Mizcu :) [11:53] hi f [11:53] Mizcu: Too long! [11:54] you wouldnt have reacted to compressed model [11:55] You can't be sure [11:58] you wouldnt have [12:13] Join: Core_old joined #corewars [12:28] Join: sf_ghoul joined #corewars [12:28] Hello :) [12:28] Hi. [12:29] Hi Multimode. [12:29] Hi sf, still a ghoul? [12:29] I haven't figured out yet if you are new, or someone with a new nick :) [12:29] I thought you were a ghost of a ghoul [12:29] Hi Fluff! [12:29] I'm new. [12:30] Welcome to #corewars [12:30] Thanks. [12:30] Bit quiet recently [12:30] Have you written anything yet? Do you plan to evolve or write your own? [12:30] sf: it is simply too hot to do anything useful [12:31] Not sure what to expect. I thought Core War would be played much more widely than it is. [12:31] Too hot here too. [12:31] I wonder what would happen if a textbook started using it. [12:31] There are about 10 active and about 40 semi-active players at the moment [12:31] (I think) [12:32] * multimode nods. "I just would have expected higher numbers than that, given the age and whatnot." [12:32] such programming contests as corewar dont have the same appeal as generic pc-games [12:32] And there seem to be lots of people who follow what's going on, but aren't playing at the moment [12:32] gridwars had nice a bunch, but only because it was pimped by HP [12:33] Hmmm... can't change the topic [12:33] yeah, the channel has +t [12:33] asw has to remove it once he wakes up [12:33] I was figuring it was more from not hearing about it than not wanting to play it. There might not be that many programmers, percentage wise, but there's a awful lot of people. If there was "Microsoft RAM Fight" or a textbook using Core War for teaching it'd probably get played more. :P [12:33] asw: please can you do a /topic http://corewar.co.uk - http://www.corewar.info - http://www.koth.org - http://corewar.atspace.com [12:34] MSG: Ping timeout: 255 seconds [12:34] it is true however that we havent advertized much [12:34] * sf_ghoul kicks Fluff for being to quiet [12:35] Mizcu: asw should not only change the +t, but /op some of us, too [12:35] * Fluffy sacrifices sf's ghoul again to the Holy Rain God and makes a wish for RAIN! [12:35] Then someone could kickban stupid bots [12:36] It rained here yesterday, and the day before [12:36] But only briefly [12:36] I'm not sure if the written/evolve question was for me. Assuming it was, I don't plan on showing anything I've written until I can beat the downloadable warriors. Being trounced privately is less embarassing than publically. As for written vs evolved, from what I've read, the evolved warriors don't work as well as hand-written ones, so I'll probably be writing one. [12:37] It may be due to it taking too long to build a warrior from nothing. It might be that if you had a decent hand written one, you could then use genetic programming to /improve/ it automatically. I might look into that eventually. [12:38] multimode: try http://corewar.info/lexicon/paper.htm [12:38] It is a nice tutorial about papers [12:39] and from there you go start to evolver/optimize/whatever :) [12:40] I got the impression that any individual strategy had a opposing strategy. I'm not sure I'd want to focus on just one. [12:40] you can make a strategy to score reverse [12:41] "score reverse" ? [12:41] Paper is a good strategy to learn first [12:41] eg paper that wins scanners but has problems with stones [12:42] Mizcu: Not sure how that solves the "focusing on one strategy isn't a reliable way to win" problem? [12:42] the point is that thinking in strategies makes you lose like in strategies [12:44] multimode: 1) You have to start somewhere. 2) Some of the best warriors on the '94nop Koenigstuhl are pure papers (with quicksanner) [12:45] I suppose. Given the age of the game I suspect most effective strategies have been identified. The only alternative to "thinking in strategies" that I can imagine is "just try to write something effective" (i.e. try to invent a strategy). If most/all of the effective strategies have been identified, I'd just be blindsided by what I didn't know. [12:45] 1,2,3: paper/stone 4: scanner 5,6,7: paper/stone [12:45] 8th is the first pure paper [12:46] Mizcu: Isn't 8th a good result! [12:46] Fluffy: I know I have to start somewhere. At this point the assembly-like language itself is hard enough to get used to. I have plenty of warriors to look at. So getting started shouldn't be a big problem. [12:46] Mizcu: And don't forget the 28th! [12:47] bah [12:47] paper/stone is currently the ruling strategy [12:48] which is vulnerable to oneshots [12:49] hmm ... if only I could create a good pws [12:49] ;-) [12:52] go ahead, SotBS can defeat them quite well [12:52] I think I shold roast you for that remark! [12:54] sure, mister i-fell-in-second-tournament-round [12:54] Yummy, roast Mizcu [12:54] I haven't had lunch yet :( [12:54] Mizcu: :) [12:54] What [12:54] 's going on with the tournament? [12:54] sf: Then go on. i'll roast Mizcu and you it the "result" ;-) [12:55] * Fluffy roasts Mizcu [12:55] * sf_ghoul looks for a knife [12:55] So where's the scissors? [12:55] Hmmm... the big one I keep under my pillow is ideal [12:56] * sf_ghoul carves Mizcu into sandwich sized slices [12:56] Mmmm... fresh bread [12:57] Now what would go best salad & mayo, or sweet pickle [12:58] multimode: http://corewar.co.uk/scanner.htm [12:58] I was referring to the rock/paper/scissors thing. ;) [12:58] This is a useful list http://corewar.co.uk/biblio.htm [13:04] I thought I'd take a break from reading a old Knuth paper to read something about p-switchers. Silly me. It's just as hard. :P [13:04] Why not read some old issues of the CoreWarrior? [13:05] This /is/ a old issue of Core Warrior. Issue 70. [13:05] I mean really old! [13:05] starting with 1 :) [13:05] And it starts out by going into abstract algebra. ;) [13:06] "the set of all congruence classes modulo n" he says. [13:06] you should start out from the first corewarrior [13:06] multimode: What's wrong with it? [13:07] Oh I just thought I'd read something since people keep pointing me at stuff. I really aught to be trying to wrap my head around "event indicators" instead. [13:07] Fluffy: Mostly I can't understand what it means. [13:07] multimode: Then ignore it and skip the math :) [13:08] You could try reading "Point (?) proven" p-switcher which implements a 3-dimentional array in CW =P [13:08] double-triple migraine assured [13:09] I don't have much of a choice at this point. I've generally found the best way to approach computer science, when what you need to understand is written in gobbledygook, is to find a concrete implementation, watch how it works, guess what the freaky words/symbols might refer to, and once you guess right, you can decode the article. :P [13:09] On the other hand, I have to admit this one thing by Knuth is written well, it's just not organized to my purposes, so I'm having to skip around a lot. [13:10] * Fluffy is back in a couple of minutes ... [13:10] MSG: Quit: fluffy.i < 1, # 42 [13:10] lets confuse him! [13:10] Nick Change: sf_ghoul changed nick to Fluffy [13:10] ;) [13:11] not again [13:11] Predicate calculus isn't nearly as scary once you've used Prolog, and lambda calculus isn't nearly as hard once you've used Lisp. :P [13:14] Join: me joined #corewars [13:14] * Fluffy kicks me! [13:14] Nick Change: Fluffy changed nick to sf_ghoul [13:14] * me kicks sf!! [13:14] Nick Change: me changed nick to Fluffy [13:16] sf: You know, that I've trademarked the name :) [13:19] Then this blog either 1) belongs to you, or 2) you can sue them [13:19] http://fluffy.org/ [13:20] well ... I'll sue them, too! [13:21] There are some good things for me to use for explanations at work in here. [13:21] "So why is the server down?" "Every finite cyclic group of order n is isomorphic to Z mod n." [13:22] X) [13:22] At that point they would leave, or ask me what that meant, and I could tell them it means the server is down. ;) [13:22] The second part is even true, if the server is up [13:22] you could install BOFH reason-script on your cellular or pocketpc (if you have one) [13:23] I wonder if that really exists. I'd like to have a copy. [13:23] yes, i finded it at some website [13:23] perl-script if i remember correctly [13:24] dont have it on the 'puter though [13:24] I haven't read it in a long time. I think the last one I read was where he dies and goes to hell. [13:26] Durn. Not getting any hits with "reason-script" [13:26] http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ballard/bofh/ [13:27] YAY! [13:28] Thanks. :) [13:29] Hee. "Fat electrons in the line." ;) [13:29] "overflow error in /dev/null" [13:29] lol [13:29] Excess surge protection! :D [13:31] while we are at it: http://rinkworks.com/stupid/ [13:32] The Babbage question at the beginning is golden. [13:33] Some of the stories are nice, too :) [13:33] * sf_ghoul wonders where Roy is recently [13:35] in Turkey [13:35] seriously! [13:36] Did I ever tell you about my theoretical physics? Based on empirical observation, I have concluded that since the big bang caused the explosion that formed the universe as it currently is, we have started to be "sucked back" (the force of suckiosity if you will). The state of the universe will steadily suck more and more, until we implode, and it starts to "blow" the other way. ;) [13:37] universe sucks [13:38] Similarly, I theorize that there is a, as yet unknown, form of radiation called "stupidity radiation". It seems that some mutations are more resistant to it than others. Many technological devices seem to emit stupidity radiation, though they vary to degree. I have noticed computers seem to be able to reduce people of average intelligence by what I estimate to be at least 20 or 30 IQ points. :P [13:39] certain person's blog mentions same thing, though not as radiation [13:40] * multimode considers the fun that could be had at work with a "stuper counter" (like a geiger counter). "Get this man to a hospital! He's dieing from exposure to stupidity rads!" [13:41] maybe peeps at MIT could make one and make a report about it [13:41] multimode: You'll probably have to kill most of the population to prevent a desaster ;-) [13:41] Actually about half my people are okay. A few constantly cause problems. You put anti-adware/spyware stuff on their computer to keep it from getting eaten up again in another two weeks. They figure out how to turn it on so they can install their ever so precious screensaver. [13:42] "Why did you turn this off." "It kept popping up messages every time I tried to install anything!" ... [13:42] I happen to have a friend whom is a bit slow in the head, and has a habit of turning every computer into spyware-hell [13:43] i think i've cleansed he's table-puter atleast thrice [13:43] dont know how the laptop is doing, ive only seen it once [13:44] Probably about a third of my people are that way. There are a few that have no business operating a computer. They could do it if we were on something like diskless workstations on Unix, where they really can't damage the installation, but that would be scary and different and things. :P [13:44] I think most of the rest are salvageable. [13:46] Maybe it just that i am an oldschooler in my age-group, but i havent ever had really problems with virii, spyware etc. , or voodoo-problems [13:47] This is the pattern I have noticed. [13:47] If you grew up in the 80s, where using a computer *required* knowing something (you couldn't even get it to start a program otherwise), and computer literacy education was mandatory, you tend to be at least marginally competent, and thus don't cause problems. [13:48] If you grew up in the 90s, unless you're a real computer geek, chances are you don't know what you're doing, and will cause problems. Oddly, this age group seems uninterested in learning anything. It's like trying to forcefeed them. [13:49] Going back about a generation, to people that grew up in the 70s, you get the same thing. [13:49] im 21, make of that what you will [13:49] On the other hand, if they grew up in the 60s or earlier, they're often not knowledgeable, but are willing to learn. [13:50] I do have one user that admits she's not very knowledgeable about computers, and is in the dreaded 30-something year old range. However, she's one of my best users, because she doesn't do anything she doesn't understand. If she has to, she calls me first, rather than tearing things up, and /then/ calling me. [13:51] I'd say if you play with pseudo assembly, you're probably okay Mizcu. ;) [13:52] A large number of people at work don't know what a "directory" is. And no, I'm not kidding. And yes, I mean the concept, not just the word. They didn't know they could make one of those little folder thingies and put thingies in it. [13:54] Hmm, you seems to be good in thinking and speaking about things; lemme ask you an opinion [13:55] It just happens that i got lucky and i got in Evtek, a local polytechnical and i have four programmes to choose from [13:56] Telecommunications, Software Engineering, Information systems and Embedded engineering [13:57] and i havent chosen yet [13:58] So you're wanting advice on what to choose? [13:59] well, rather thought about possibilities [13:59] i though about Software major with Telecom minor [13:59] I'm not sure what you mean. [13:59] http://www.evtek.fi/technology/programmes/inftech/majors/data/ [14:00] Oh I know what the majors mean. I'm just not sure what it was you were wanting me to say. [14:00] * sf_ghoul waves [14:00] * Fluffy waves to sf [14:00] well, i can still change my mind [14:00] MSG: Quit: I was using TinyIRC! Visit http://www.tinyirc.net/ for more information. [14:01] For instance, I can tell you my opinion of the various fields. I will say that the country you're in is much better than mine, software engineering wise, so it might be more viable. I don't know if there are similar differences in the other fields... [14:02] First, a disclaimer: I fiddle with programming "for fun". This seems to be hard for other people to understand. I get a lot of flack on other channels because people think I'm asking for help on my homework when I ask things like "can you point me to references that show the difference in bug density between programs written in functional and imperative programming styles"? [14:03] The truth is I just wanted to know /what/ exactly, makes it more stable, if anything (my suspicion is nothing because there is no practical difference, everything you can do with mutation you can do with functions, and vice versa). [14:03] I would have taken telecomm. as first choice, but it has little problems about getting work from, as redicilous as it sounds [14:03] So anyways, I'm not a professional software guy. [14:03] I'm also "just a hardware/software technician + some administration + some of the software end of networking", not the high hoodoo of yadda yadda. :P [14:04] My impression from working with the other fields (except embedded stuff) is this: [14:04] software will give a job, but i guess it is very easy to get a burn-out in (thedailywtf give such an idea [14:04] ) [14:05] Telecom pays insanely well. You're not in any risk of being outsourced. Work is stable. It doesn't seem mindnumbingly boring to me. The only thing here is the jobs that pay the *best* are the physical cable running, which tends to be fairly exhausting, and surprises a lot of people (they think the desk jobs would pay better). The highest payed guy at work is ex-phone-company, and does our network wiring. [14:07] Software engineering (programming, computer science, informatics, whatever you want to call it this week) sucks, at least in the US. They're outsourcing like crazy to India, China, and Russia (in roughly that order of priority). The jobs are easy to outsource (there's no need to physically be there). You get paid for 8 hours a day, and typically work 12 to 16 to make some jackass marketing guy's deadline. [14:08] MSG: Quit: fluffy.i < 1, # 42 [14:09] All creativity is stifled. Common sense is stifled. You will be told what to write, and how to write it, and even if it's "wrong" you will have to do it that way. Most work is so boring it will cause your neurons to fray, and your eyes to gaze upward in the hopes angels are arriving to rescue you. :P Really, most of these guys work on doing simple arithmetic for stuff going into or out of a database. [14:11] Information systems seems to be "computer science" (or your term of choice "without the crap". You take programming and networking courses. You aren't required to take advanced calculus of continuous functions (what most people just call "calculus"). You aren't forced to take extra chemistry or biology courses. [14:12] On the other hand you run roughly the same risk as a computer science major (namely, outsourcing, bad working conditions, etc). You can, however, do networking with it, and if this is what you graduate with, I *firmly* suggest you do networking or system administration, not programming. [14:13] Embedded stuff I don't know much about, but it looks like it has a bright future, and you might be able to work on things you like, rather than things you're forced into. There's Windows CE, Linux, and a lot of custom OS work. Of course there's work on unique hardware. One of the downsides of doing administration (something I sort of got pushed into) is you're likely to have to deal with things you hate. [14:14] So having the option to work in something you /like/ would be a improvement. [14:15] I'm told Finland has a very strong software industry, so things may not be as bad there as I've stated. Software (and technology in general) in the US is dieing. [14:20] Nokia phones have crap software, go figure [14:21] Software is in a terrible state. A lot of people would like to claim that it's because it's "just that hard". I don't buy that. I'm not saying it's easy, but, for instance, in 1975 we knew how to stop all malware. People still aren't applying the research. There's just no excuse. [14:22] Instead people are trying to squeeze the last few drops of blood out of a turnip by devoting millions of dollars to copy protection research. *eyeroll* [14:24] If you're curious, the "trick" to stopping malware is object capabilities. Basically "programs have permissions" instead of, or in addition to "users have permissions and programs have all the permissions of the user they run as". The fine points take a bit to explain (e.g. how you do this without irritating the user with constant permission questions), but that should get the idea across. [14:25] Web server gets hacked? Oh no! They now have permission to... read the files the web server can access, and, uh, transfer it to themselves! :P [14:27] information systems is about digital measuring [14:28] i guess it would get me place at vaisala.. [14:28] not that i would care about it [14:28] Join: Core_old joined #corewars [14:29] Information systems in the US means, basically "the business use of computers". You learn about networking, programming, databases, etc. Only the "practical" stuff, not much if any of the "theoretical" stuff (this is both good and bad). [14:30] So it sounds like it might be different there. [14:33] its because the programmes in the English are different than in Finnish [14:34] Most likely. [14:34] because they also offer teaching in Eng [14:34] I'd say the Finnish probably have a better system at this point. :P [14:36] It might be interesting to see what the Finnish computer science syllabuses look like. I'm guessing I wouldn't be able to read them though. [14:37] http://www.evtek.fi/tekniikka/koulutusohjelmat/tietotekniikka/opintojaksot/suunta/ <- gives a little idea [14:41] That's not in English though. That's what I meant by figuring I wouldn't be able to read it. [14:52] sorry for the little slow answering, cousins has a visit [14:53] It's okay. [14:55] got a "little" expensive watch for gift [14:57] That was nice of them. :) [15:03] cant find the watch from the manufacturer's website o_O [15:03] Who is it? [15:03] Raymond Weil [15:04] http://www.raymond-well.ch/ [15:04] http://www.raymond-weil.ch/ [15:04] Sorry. [15:04] yes, i checked there [15:05] It says its a Swiss watch manufacturer. [15:05] And notice that it's a "i" not a "l" [15:06] i said it was Weil with ee-el [15:06] Yes, but a lot of people are spellin' it with the two "l"'s rather than "il". :) [15:07] So that's not the manufacturer's site, somehow? [15:08] this one was bought from East, and the company isnt in the list of official retailers.. [15:08] and instead of roman numbers, this has ordinary [15:09] it did come with stuff and official looking guarantee card [15:10] Maybe it's newer or older than what they have on their website? [15:10] If there's a model number or something you could look it up by that maybe. [15:12] You may also find more on the support site (if there is one) than the sales front. [15:12] i see serial but not model number or name [15:16] found it [15:16] fucking cheap one [15:16] ouch [15:16] * multimode chuckles. "Hey, it was free." [15:17] Well, it was free to them too, actually. Won in some sort of lottery. [15:18] Well, there ya go. :) [15:18] Now you can give it to someone. [15:18] If everybody keeps doing that it may make it around the world! [15:18] Then you can sell it on eBay for lots of money, because of the story about it being passed around the world. :P [15:19] right.. [15:19] Hey, don't look at me that way. If people will pay big bucks to own a few pixels on a page, or buy Jesus toast, they'll pay for a world travelling watch. [15:21] MSG: Ping timeout: 255 seconds [15:21] maybe i should start acting like a yuppie now [15:21] All the cool kids are doing it. ;) [15:21] 'caus i got a watch to proof it [15:23] http://www.answers.com/topic/dat-bomb <- amusing [15:24] Join: sf_ghoul joined #corewars [15:26] This may sound dumb, but I can't find it at the moment. What is the register width in Core War? [15:26] we dont use registers? [15:26] Like if you were to multiply two big numbers, would you get a overflow? [15:27] it would just wrap around [15:27] Everything works MOD CORESIZE [15:27] So that's what defines the bit width of the registers? [15:27] yes [15:37] Topic Change: asw sets topic: http://corewar.co.uk - http://www.corewar.info - http://www.koth.org - http://corewar.atspace.com [15:38] * asw waves [15:38] Hi asw :) [15:38] could you take +t mode off? [15:38] wait [15:38] silly me [15:38] done [15:38] * sf_ghoul waits for the bot to arrive! :) [15:39] * asw smiles [15:39] ups [15:39] What are you working on asw? [15:41] http://www.nature.com/msb/journal/v1/n1/full/msb4100040.html [15:42] sf_ghoul - my PhD dissertation is a new artificial life system built on Corewar (with a Quantum Mechanical twist). [15:42] It's not the most practical project on earth (although scientifically interesting.) [15:42] So the last year or so I've been working on human DNA sequencing. It's a very fun problem... [15:43] What's bein' banned? [15:43] a chatbot that has habit of joining here randomly [15:43] Why does it do that? [15:43] though its been silent for a while [15:43] dont know, dont care [15:43] And I take it it spams or something? [15:44] we dont need a bot here "speaking" random words glued together [15:44] Whee. :P [15:49] The bot is here less now a certain person is here less :P [15:50] It made occassional meaningless comments which got people really angry. [16:11] http://pics.maunier.org/ark.jpg [16:20] MSG: Quit: I was using TinyIRC! Visit http://www.tinyirc.net/ for more information. [16:23] Join: bvowk joined #corewars [16:23] hrm. [16:23] das bvowkenstein [16:23] greetings. [16:23] hey.. [16:23] those are ops! [16:23] w00t [16:24] anybody want to be how long these will last? [16:24] unless bvowk sets up an opbot [16:24] be -> bet [16:24] heh [16:35] so whats up miz? [16:35] where is everyone? [16:35] summer vacation? [16:36] is always silent here in summer [16:37] hrm. [16:37] * bvowk rattles sf and heath [16:37] and fluffy [16:37] so, I've been playing with sudoku laterly.. [16:37] http://www.thewarstore.com/product17478.html [16:37] er.. just lately. [16:37] I've generated just shy of a billion of them. [16:38] it's kinda fun.. [16:38] dunno what to do with them tho.. [16:38] so I churned a bunch of them into versions with symmetry [16:38] dude.. its the A-Team [16:39] hasdrubal? [16:39] ah. [16:39] its the B-team, for copyright purposes ;) [16:42] bbl --> [16:42] MSG: [17:35] Join: Mizcu joined #corewars [18:29] heya miz [18:30] yee, waiting 3on3 cup final to come on et-tv [18:30] and listening some sort of gameradio with host i know to be a -- eh.. silly person [18:38] "msg him so that he lags and loses, i want my bans off" [18:40] "now i now how to put music off without crashing the server" [18:43] "25.. whole #et-recruit listening to me" [18:55] "what match is this.. some final?" [19:03] When you've got a nailgun, everyone starts to look like a blockhead. [19:08] "hes a smart one, when there is a 'nade, he takes it so that both dont get it" [19:37] Join: Core_old joined #corewars