[00:36] MSG: Quit: humhum [02:10] that is exactly what Inversed was saying about in he's rant about optimizing: more you do it, the more you specialize [02:30] I guess you could read it that way. What I got out of it is he didn't think (automatically) optimizing was "real" programming. I can't recall if it was him or someone else complaining about genetic programming being "cheating" too. I find that particularly strange since, outside the tiny hills, genetic programming produced warriors are generally inferior. [02:30] But personally, whatever method gets the best results with the least effort seems best to me. "Best results" would take overspecialization into account, though. [02:31] genetic programming could be cheating, but currently not IMHO [02:31] I'm not sure how it could be cheating. [02:32] well, not cheating, but taking the fun out of corewars in its original meaning [02:33] Seems like just another way of playing it to me. [02:33] Normal video games are like programming. [02:33] Core War is like metaprogramming. [02:33] Genetic programming to create Core War warriors is like metametaprogramming. [02:34] You're still thinking and designing. Hand coding you design the behavior itself. Genetic programming you design the fitness function and evolution mechanism. [02:35] oh well [02:37] IRC minitournaments are still free of almost all optimizing [02:37] One thing I am curious about is how Koza got the results he did. Clearly either the problems in his books aren't nearly as hard as Core War (that's possible but I'm not so sure), or he knows a lot more about it than most people. I'd be inclined to get the books, if they weren't so darn expensive. They're also rather thick, and there's a lot of them. [02:37] in 30 minutes, you dont have time to modify your evolver and get it to run good enough soup [02:37] Seems like you should be able to boil a single optimization technique, and how to tune it, down to a few hundred pages at most. [02:38] Where's the 30 minute time limit come in? [02:41] IRC-minitournaments are through irc, and thus the battles are short, because not everyone has time to spend hours on computer for single challenge [02:41] while people can find time within a week or so [02:41] for bigger tourneys [02:41] I got the impression most people sat around and wrote some warriors on their own, trying out different ideas and tuning them, then when they thought they were good enough, they looked for someone to play against. [02:42] theres been only little less than 30 minibattles so far [02:42] because the amount of people available varies [02:43] its boring to have one for just 4 people [02:43] Well, I can understand how that could effect it if you demand to play the game in "Okay, 30 minutes from now, you all have to upload your warriors, and they'll battle it out. You can't use one you've already written. Start typing now!" fashion. The thought of playing it that way just never crossed my mind. [02:44] I'm not sure I could turn out anything but utter trash in 30 minutes. I wouldn't have time to think and write, both. [02:45] the 30 minutes are really hectic, and since the rules are usually non-standard, you cant use well known warriors [02:45] and in almost every round a simple tactic has won [02:45] I guess I'm too used to oldfashioned offline gaming, but I figured people wrote warriors on their own and uploaded them here and there. People mined the net to find warriors to play against when they got bored with the ones they had. [02:46] I thought if there was a tournament people would enter whatever was the best thing they had written at the time. [02:46] http://www.corewar.info/irct.htm [02:47] Oh I believe you. I just ... dunno. I don't think I'd like playing it that way. [02:47] well, we dont have that many people playing CW actively, so the old fashioned way is still the leading one [02:48] It's not hard to turn something out in 30 minutes. It's probably hard to turn something out that doesn't crash itself, much less is effective. Most of the warriors aren't gigantic in size, true, but (if you're doing it right) the majority of the time is spent thinking, not writing. I don't think 30 minutes would allow me enough time to both think and write. [02:48] If you had monthly battles, I could see doing that. There'd be enough time to at least have the possibility of turning out something clever. [02:49] yes, it takes some experience and stress-management to be succesfull [02:50] I suspect that if you're only given 30 minutes, luck, and having memorized a fairly large number of canned strategies are the biggest factors. [02:51] be sure to check out the strategies used every round, if you have the time [02:52] But, hey, if people like playing it that way, that's cool. I'm just positive it wouldn't be my thing. If I can turn out something that at least holds its own 50% of the time against the top warriors I can find, I'd consider writing for a monthly tournament or something, at least on occasion. Until then, I'd rather not embarrass myself. :P [02:53] everyone is a beginner at least once.. [02:54] It has occurred to me that it would probably not be /that/ hard to write something specifically designed to kill a certain leading warrior (knowing exactly where to peg it with a dat bomb, and how to recognize it ASAP) but it would probably get killed by everything else. [02:54] It's a lot harder to come up with something general that is much better than the state of the art. [02:55] I have had one idea, but it may have been done before. [02:55] It might also be too slow to be practical. [03:05] well, you could always ask someone if your idea might be useful in redcoding, if you have problems deciding yourself [03:06] that doesnt mean that you have to ask me, of course, if you feel paranoid about me stealing your idea [03:06] (s) [03:06] Well, it might be fun if it could be turned into something practical, to enter it on one of the hills somewhere first. :P [03:07] After I saw how well it did, either way, I wouldn't have any objection to giving the code out. I don't believe in closed source. If everything was closed source nobody would ever learn anything. [15:03] Join: John joined #corewars [15:03] hi John [15:03] Hi :-) [15:04] I think my favourite IRC client has vanished from the net :-( [15:04] =/ [15:04] which one? [15:04] Xircon [15:05] Yes, havent really heard much of it. I know the name though. [15:05] mIRC rules the networks, which is shame [15:06] you could try irssi, if you like old-school style client [15:08] Thanks, I'll download that next time :-) [15:08] They wipe the software off the machines in the internet cafe every night [15:25] hmm [15:25] do you think OOS -> paper could be viable tactic? [15:26] Yes [15:26] hello. [15:26] Any kind of prescan to a paper can be made to work okay [15:26] Hi Bvowk [15:26] how goes all? [15:26] i didnt test much, but after OOS has finished, a moore-paper didnt have enough time to beat other papers [15:26] nice enough [15:26] Okay, thanks. How about for you? [15:27] alright I guess.. [15:27] we had a (computer) break in last night.. a guessed password of all the stupid things. [15:27] though waiting cellphone to ring, gotta go config (read: plug in) some computers [15:27] :-( [15:27] script kiddies waited an entire 15 seconds before they tried to use my big CAnet connection to try and flatten some random box.. [15:28] :-( [15:28] the good part is that my firewall blocked all the outgoing packets (for the most part) there was a small secondary attack that made it through that really screwed up figuring out wtf was going on.. [15:28] we thought we were being ddos'd from outside for a bit.. [15:28] made for an exciting time. [15:29] (exciting like the chinese curse "may you live in interesting times...") [15:29] I'm actually shocked at how few of my users passwords are guessable (I turned my computrons towards password cracking for a little while..) I'm pleasantly surprised! [15:30] the only people with really awful passwords are the old old old retired faculty.. and I pretty much have to reset their passwords every time they get the hankering to login anyways ;) [15:33] why not put up a paper at some well-watched board saying "we had a security breach last night, the password of happy user JOHN DOESON was guessed, lets all congratulate him for it" [15:34] I used to do that.. it usually doesn't go over very well ;) [15:34] I've learned its better if I do something privately horrible and they talk amongst themselves [15:35] Is it effective? [15:35] yeah, the stories my users tell eachother are far more effective than me posting notices [15:36] although, sometimes I've got problems with people being scared to come see me.. [15:40] so anyone hacking anything cool today? [15:40] not myself [15:40] no? [15:41] * John neither [15:41] it looks like I'm going an insane distance northward this weekend. [15:41] helped cousins transferring their tra-- stuff at their new apartment [15:41] But I'm trying to make a better colour scheme for my website (after the Christmas comment!) [15:42] Also, someone at work thought it was a Portuguese website due to the colours :-( [15:45] http://www.google.ca/maps?f=l&hl=en&q=winagamie,+alberta&near=&ie=UTF8&ll=55.646212,-116.846466&spn=0.358413,0.637894&t=h&om=1 [15:45] I believe that is where I'm headed. [15:45] you'll notice the distinct lack of anything anywhere nearby. [15:48] well, i did make a weird/awful OOS-variation earlier.. [15:50] :-) [15:51] awful? [15:51] wierdly awful? :) [15:51] add.f inc, ptr [15:51] mov.i @table, }ptr [15:51] mov.i @table, >ptr [15:51] ptr: sne.i step, step+hop [15:51] djn.b -4, #200 [15:51] mov.x table, table [15:51] jmn.b -5, -2 [15:51] (Dclear) [15:51] (dats) [15:51] table: nop m, s [15:51] m: mov -1, }-1 [15:51] s: spl #2, #0 [15:53] Yes, wierd in a cool way :-) [15:57] cant think of any good use for such double-carpet though [15:57] incendiaries are kinda waste [15:57] You could just go straight back to the add.f after placing the incendiary, but would need a tweak [15:58] maybe if mov #1, <1 and spl #0, #0 [16:05] BBL, write here if some ideas/inspirations pop up [16:29] MSG: Quit: Yummy, like ircing on a cake! [ http://www.bersirc.org/ - Open Source IRC ] [18:05] Join: Core_old joined #corewars [18:13] MSG: Quit: Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com [18:15] päk [18:17] Join: Core_old joined #corewars [18:18] Me? [18:19] eh-eh [18:19] päk = Finlandization of back [20:31] Join: sf_ghoul joined #corewars [20:31] Hello [20:31] BVOWKY! [20:41] * sf_ghoul kicks bvowky [20:41] MSG: Quit: I was using TinyIRC! Visit http://www.tinyirc.net/ for more information. [20:44] ouch