[08:44] still idling? [08:45] aye [08:46] *g* i am looking for some useful calculation formulae, like stone/imp steps [08:48] formulae, no dice [08:49] ehm, sorry: ?? [08:49] i am working on a mars-calculator... [08:50] there isnt an exact way of calculating a "good" step [08:50] but you can create lists [08:50] more optimal isnt always better [08:50] great, my main enter is busted [08:51] sth. like the http://www.corewar.info/lexicon/impstep.htm [08:51] more optimal *gggÜ [08:51] search for mod8000 [08:51] its a huge table with every stepnumber analyzed [08:52] i allready have prime number table, factors, list of "all n = m * 4, where m is prime and gcd(m, CS) = 1" and sth similar for impsteps [08:53] the most optimal steps for common MOD's have been already used for a long while [08:53] (k * i) mod CS = 1 [08:53] and so they have been also optimized against [08:55] what do you think, is such a calculator useless? [08:55] you are better off making what grabun made: [08:55] i read in rgc, that someone was searching for impsteps for a given core size [08:56] (the tournament) [08:56] a virtual "core" which simulates running of a stone, and its "hop" (see any .5c stone), and test random numbers with condition that a bombing-run must last atleast X bombs, and the last one must hit an exact instruction [08:56] generate couple dozen step-couples, and bench them [08:57] ah nice idea [08:59] the imp-launcher is best positioned so that during (as late as possible) stages of the bombing-run the spl #0 is hit by a bomb [09:00] i read something about .mac files... is there a macro language in pmars? [09:02] yes [09:02] and if yes, did they just use some allready existing source or was it written for pmars? [09:02] read "cdb intro" in corewarrior #somenumber [09:02] written [09:03] ouch... [09:09] never bothered to really learn it [09:09] *g* [09:09] only thing i need is cl~@s~l0,20 [09:09] maybe i can connect the javascript of the browser component for scripting my mars... [09:10] (clear screen, run one step without output, show 0-20) [10:33] http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace [13:48] Join: fiveop joined #corewars [14:17] MSG: Quit: Lost terminal [14:18] Join: fiveop joined #corewars [14:23] Join: Fluffy joined #corewars [14:23] :) [14:25] (: [14:31] hmm ... already two people with missing noses [14:37] :P [14:38] three people ... it might be a new desease! [14:39] MNS - Missing Nose Syndrome [14:40] -_- [14:41] MSG: Quit: Lost terminal [14:41] four people ... it seems to be pandemic! [14:41] .. and fiveop might have already died from MNS, altough he claims to have lost his terminal [14:48] Guess what happened after I've installed IE7 with Wine under Linux? [14:49] Yes, it crashed ;-) [14:49] that didnt take much guessing [14:49] at least IE 5.5 and 6.0 work good eough [14:52] Join: Roy joined #corewars [14:53] Hi Roy [15:01] Hi :-) [15:01] (with nose_ [15:04] Yes, somestime it shows, sometimes it doesn't. Seems to be one of the symptoms of MNS. [15:09] Nick Change: ares changed nick to ares_ [15:10] in school they called me "the nose" *Ggg* [15:14] Nick Change: ares_ changed nick to sera [15:14] Damn, I have MNS too :( [15:15] And the mortality rate is high! [15:15] is it a bad symptom, when your name gets inverted? [15:16] Yes, it's called the emiclock-syndrome! [15:16] * Fluffy kicks sera [15:17] ouch [15:17] Nick Change: sera changed nick to seraph [15:18] Funny, when you kick it it gets a new name! [15:18] * Roy kicks seraph [15:18] (ehem lol) [15:18] Nick Change: Roy changed nick to yoR [15:18] Eek! [15:19] * Fluffy kicks Roy [15:19] Nick Change: seraph changed nick to marcus [15:19] * Fluffy kicks Miczu [15:19] * Fluffy kicks Fluffy [15:19] damn! That didn't work [15:19] * marcus kicks F'y [15:19] You missed me..! [15:20] "the kicking feets" [15:20] You kicked my inversed twin brother [15:20] yo, R [15:20] * yoR skcik yffulF [15:20] damn... [15:21] Nick Change: yoR changed nick to Roy [15:21] as I can see, you started playing with the WRP instruction [15:22] Apparently :( [15:26] So Fluffy working on anything cool atm? [15:26] Define 'cool'! [15:26] *gg* [15:26] Something worth mentioning ;-) [15:26] Or marcus/ares/sera/seraph> [15:27] I'm working on a new Plasmodium-variant for nano :) [15:27] Stupid nano killing all my warriors :-( [15:28] i lol, therefore i am [15:28] * Roy wants John to come online, he's going to tell me what he thinks of the freaky scanner I posted on r.g.c [15:28] Yes, and with a few more successful challenges John will have the oldest nano warrior [15:28] I know, therefore I'm sad.. [15:29] And don't forget that I'm slowly filling the nano hill with my warriors [15:30] Thats alright with me, competition is always fun... I still expect more tieing warriors! [15:32] Will you send new warriors to nano soon, Roy? [15:33] cant find plasmodium on google [15:33] what does it do? [15:33] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasmodium [15:33] huh [15:33] nope... [15:34] I'm using names of real bacteria and viruses for my nano warirors [15:34] i realized [15:35] Plasmodium vivax is for instance the most common bacterium for malaria [15:35] i thought you want to tell us something about your warrior *g* [15:35] It has 5 instructions [15:36] I usually publish all of my warriors to Koenigstuhl [15:36] The nano-Koenigstuhl has some new ones :) [15:38] marcus: Publishing a warrior before it is pushed isn't a very good idea for nano. It is too easy to optimize against it. [15:38] *pushed off [15:38] Haven't done any CW lately except the tournament and the scanner, so no new nano stuff I guess [15:39] Got some spare time this week before I go skiing, might kick the evolver into higher gear [15:39] would you go and write an anti-warrior, if someone _would_ publish before? [15:40] whats the point on doing so? [15:40] okay, i don't want to see the point on using opimizers, too [15:41] marcus: That's not the point. One example: I need a good benchmark for generating my warriors for nano. And the resulting warrior is especially good against the benchmark. Now guess, where I take my benchmark from? [15:42] Nah, I usualy publish my warriors when they are still on the hill, but its bad for you, because the opposition will optimize against it [15:42] hmm... i see [15:42] I guess most people have 'From the Ritz to the Rubble' in their benchmark [15:43] Yes, it is a really nice warrior [15:46] the picture of a malaria bacterium on the wiki page mentioned above still fascinates me... [15:47] When I've generated Trypanosoma brucei I've start with the form of From The Ritz To The Rubble, but my generator changed it completely. Now I have a warrior, which scores very similarly to Ritz, but is quite different. Stange ... [15:47] *started [15:47] must be surrounded by some strange stuff, because all the red stuff around keeps distance [15:47] Heh thats odd, I just took my best clear and stuffed a imp to the end ;-) [15:48] And it doesn't get very much processes in the imp because of the clear [15:48] but the imp seems to be very important for the high number of ties [15:50] and I've also noticed, that an A-imp is next to useless [15:51] if a single evaluation of a nano warrior (coresize == 80, right?), it should take about than MAXLENGTH years, to evaluate every possible warrior [15:51] if ... takes one second [15:51] no [15:51] damn [15:51] huh? [15:51] i forgot that it is a potence [15:52] there are 423360 possible instructions with 18 opcodes [15:53] no [15:53] sure, i will try all combinations once i get my hands on cray XXX [15:53] a cray won't help very much [15:54] lets up it to say.. quantum? [15:54] I just WRP back and try another warrior... [15:54] marcus: There are 16 useful opcodes for nano, 7 modifiers and 8 addressing modes [15:55] marcus: That makes (16*7*8*80*8*80)^5 different warriors [15:55] i got it wrong... #OPC (18) * #mod (6) * #modes (6) * CORESIZE * #modes * CORESIZE = 24M [15:55] To get the perfect warrior you need to test the warrior against N-1 others... dont forget that :-D [15:55] (-F) [15:56] 7 modifiers? [15:56] 8 modes?? [15:56] yes [15:56] .a .b .ab .ba .x .i [15:56] modifiers: .a, .b, .ab, .ba, .f, .i, .x [15:56] ah [15:56] modes: # $ @ < > * { } [15:57] hm... i should not do any programming today [15:57] and makes far more than 24 million different warriors [15:58] so, when can we expect to have discovered the best nano warrior? is it before our sun explodes? [15:59] calculation is quite difficult, if you includee moore's law [15:59] So thats 24mil^(24mil-1) pmars -F fights...? [15:59] would be a nice article for core warrior [16:00] marcus: there doesn't seem to be "the best" nano warrior [16:00] it depends on what you call best [16:00] are many warriors scoring the same? [16:00] highest score against all possible nano-warriors? [16:00] hightest scores against the current hill? [16:00] hightest score against a benchmark? [16:01] sure, it depends on how you define "best" - in this case it would be the "best of all possible against all others", and not "best of current hill" [16:01] The best warrior against all others may not enter the current hill... [16:01] best is which fluffy cannot best [16:01] *gg* [16:02] btw. how long are you playing cw? [16:02] * Roy since 2000 or something [16:02] long enough [16:03] fluffy keeps silent? *g* [16:03] hi mizcu [16:04] Mizcu: Give me a benchmark of nano warrior and I'll create a warrior, which scores > 180 against it [16:04] *warriors [16:04] and in what time? [16:04] Usually I need a couple of hours to create a good warrior. Let's say 48 hours [16:04] hm... [16:05] Mizcu: and please make it less that 200 warriors :) [16:05] how do you find out, what strategy to use? or do you need to upload some "probes"? [16:05] ah! [16:06] playing on the hill is guesswork, i suppose? [16:06] yes [16:07] * Roy is going to cross through germany friday :-) who of those german cw-ers is going to offer me lunch ;-) [16:08] * marcus is austrian... if you come to vienna, your invited [16:08] Me, if you are in Berlin :) [16:12] * Roy is going from Holland to Königsleiten [16:12] Doesn't seem to be near Berlin [16:12] Vienna and Berlin are a bit out of the planned route :-D [16:13] we need a SPC-WRP instruction, too. [16:13] Don't complain, Troy! ;-) [16:13] err [16:13] Roy [16:13] T-Roy-an [16:14] Roy: You were waiting for nano-warriors, which tie more. My generator seems to be working on a paper similar to Staphylococcus aureus [16:15] Hehe cool, never saw papers on nano before... it would be even more fun if we had 6 instructions, suddenly a lot more possibilities [16:15] We should hold a growing competition, first one instruction, then 2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10! [16:15] One silk is enough for nano, two don't work [16:16] the core seems to too small [16:19] Yes, I'd like to have a micro hill, something between nano and tiny, but not with the usual settings, sth. like coresize=273, maxlength=11, maxproc= 93, ... [16:20] what about random core hills? [16:20] in which way random? [16:20] eg. you dont know any of the settings, except if there is pspace or not [16:21] no, then most warriors would suck most of the time [16:21] and every confrontation uses different random settings... could be intersting and would rule out optimizers [16:21] and what would you do, if you warrior is too long [16:21] okay, a given min/max may be useful [16:21] you can't rule out optimizers [16:22] there's no way to know whether they've been used [16:22] would you use an optimizer for CORESIZE (800.80000), MAXPROC (1..8000) [16:22] Paper-galore! [16:23] marcus: for '94nop I only use optimizers [16:23] My manually written warriors aren't any good [16:23] marcus: If you don't know the settings its only guessing [16:23] am i wrong, when beliving, that optimizers would not help much with that variety of surroundings? [16:24] they would, if you'd give them enough time [16:24] People know as little as the optimizer would [16:24] But I guess, that imps would be among the best warriors [16:25] no - i dont want an imp hill *G* [16:26] the do sth. different [16:26] try to get onto nano :) [16:26] The only way to really mess up evolvers and optimizers is using a giant hill, then computation becomes too slow [16:26] yes, but we already have that [16:26] and what would you consider as giant? [16:27] even 94nop is big enough, if your name isn't bvowk [16:27] Yes, we have a large hill bit its not biassed right... [16:28] First stage of my generator is finished. Current score: 126.968581 (W 36.713976, L 46.459372, T 16.826652) [16:31] What does that stage say? [16:31] How is the score calculated? [16:32] Score is against my current nano-benchmark [16:32] The highest score? [16:32] First stage simply consists of randomly changing all possible fields and take the best one [16:32] That isn't 180 (yet) :P [16:32] stage1: 110-130 [16:33] stage2: 140-150 [16:33] stage3: 155-200 (depending on benchmark) [16:33] a score of 150 is usually enough to enter the nano hill [16:33] but I've seen warrior with > 180 scores, which didn't enter [16:33] *warriors [16:35] Thats odd, you can always try to resubmit them, I once (accidently) had two of the same warriors on the hill but they scored very differently [16:35] that's because SAL doesn't use -P for nano [16:35] The new warriors on the hill score the same though but the old score against the warriors still on the hill is kept the same [16:45] Hmm, what Autobahns are unlimited nowadays? [16:48] *which [16:49] No very many [16:49] Usually there are only some parts without speed restrictions [16:49] 130 is the usual speed [16:50] Well, thats still 10 more then here (we have 100 or 120 max here) [16:51] Yes, Germans are simply stupid :-( [16:51] But on a 10-hour drive (says the online planner) those 10km make a difference ;-) [16:52] why don't you fly? Isn't that cheaper? [16:52] Stupid? the whole world loves those freeways :-D [16:52] No, car is much cheaper, I only have to tank one time in germany/austria and in Holland I can tank for free (comany car) [16:52] I don't think so [16:53] *company [16:53] In my opinion 120 km/h is enough and everything about that should be severely punished [16:53] So the whole drive costs me 50 euros or something :-) and I can drive right up to the hotel, with a plane I have to get a train to Königsleiten etc [16:53] *above [16:54] It depends on the weather/car you drive.. [16:54] When its late at night and I'm alone on a 5/6 lane speedway pfft... then its just silly if I need to drive 100 :( [16:54] Yes, the more expensive the car is the more stupid seems to be its owner ;-) [16:55] I drove a old car for a while, and my current car is just two years old, and its much much safer [16:56] I guess that you still don't want to see how it does against a solid wall ;) [16:56] It stops twice as fast etc... not even taking the airbag etc into consideration (those only help if you do crash) [16:57] * Roy voted for a party who supports 130km/h in the elections a month ago ;-) [16:57] I'd like to have politician who at least try to do what they promise [16:58] It gets even sillier, they installed 'traject-controlle' here, they meassure the speed of EVERYBODY who drives there 24/7 and you are only allowed to drive 80km/h on the freeway, even late at night! [16:59] hmm ...80 km/h should be enough for such a small country ;-) [17:02] but tracking everybody isn't a good idea [17:03] Heh, its just silly... but well, in the daily traffic jams it helps a little bit, but they should turn it off at night [17:03] no, they should track everybody [17:06] no, nobody should be trackt. instead they should get self aware. [17:07] my tv said something like "soccer - the pill for men" today... [17:07] pfft, they should equip all cars with a limiter [17:07] hehe [17:07] yes, but that won't happen :( [17:07] Anal sex - the pill for men.. [17:08] there is a significant relation between soccer events and birth rates *g* [17:08] Hehe, less babies 9 months after the World Champ? [17:09] exactly [17:09] A friend of mine tried to do something about it, he got twins this weekend ;-) [17:09] *G*G* [17:09] and where did he buy them? [17:10] ebay [17:11] btw. if you are not ready for buying babies, maybe you want to order sth. from http://www.realdoll.com [17:12] ok, now we are again banned from google ;-) [17:12] really? [17:13] a friend of mine just called yesterday, telling me, that he can't reach specific pages anymore... google page apperaing and saying "page not reachable" or "page can be harmful to your computer - really open it?" [17:14] yes, it happen quite often! and don't mention how to build nuclear weapons [17:14] (something new for ISP-proxies...) [17:14] is core war considered a violent computer game?? [17:15] of course [17:15] what? you expect echelon listening to us? [17:15] so, i will have to freak out, delete my hard drive and go kill some pets, some day? [17:16] do you know details about echelon? how is it working - they cant scan everything, can they? [17:17] Mizcu: no, but that would be quite an achievement [17:17] lol [17:17] I know i am listened. www.echelon.fi [17:18] Yes, that's because Finland is planing to invade the US [17:18] Mizcu: Don't deny it! [17:18] i only get eyes on that adress [17:21] http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Finland [17:25] A little-known fact: most Finnish sentences can be used as Microsoft product activation codes. ROFL [17:26] Hehehe [17:28] Join: gareththe joined #corewars [17:28] Hi gareththe! [17:28] hi! [17:28] hows tricks [17:28] Bye gareththe! (I have to go!) [17:28] bye :) [17:29] * Roy waves [17:29] MSG: Quit: dat [17:29] hi gareth [17:29] Mizcu: What does "Maailma odottaa" mean and how is it pronounced? [17:29] World awaits [17:30] I really like the language :) [17:30] are this real examples?? [17:30] evtek.fi/ [17:38] what is a good way of benchmarking my warriors in linux? [17:40] for which hill? [17:40] dunno really, just in general [17:41] standard size (8000) most importantly I guess [17:41] Join: sf_ghoul joined #corewars [17:41] Hello [17:41] on http://www.corewar.info/bench.htm you'll find some benchmarks [17:41] Hi sh [17:41] ok ... another try: Hi sf! [17:41] gareth: write a script [17:41] gareththe: for '94nop the fsh94nop version 0.3 is current [17:41] Hi Hluhh [17:41] hi sf_ghoul [17:41] lol [17:42] Hi Marcus, are you new here? [17:42] sf: Got any new warriors for nano? [17:42] * marcus aka ares [17:42] what is fsh94nop? [17:42] the name of a benchmark [17:42] http://www.corewar.info/optimax/dload/ [17:42] Nick Change: marcus changed nick to ares [17:43] it is set of warriors sorted according to their strategies [17:43] ok sry :) [17:43] why did you ask "on linux" [17:43] usually you benchmark your warrior against the subbenchmarks and average the results [17:44] btw. is the aresbenchmark running in wine? [17:44] well some of the bench marks are batch files [17:44] ares: dunno, would that be affected by the assembler bugs? [17:44] new assember should be no problem anymore [17:45] is that ready? [17:45] yes [17:45] oh cool [17:45] "check for updates" [17:45] oh yeah lol [17:46] but testings still need to be done... [17:46] ok ;) [17:47] benchmark uses external pmars.exe, so that wont be a problem, if - and that is my qustion - the call works with wine [17:48] ok let me see [17:48] Join: Core_old joined #corewars [17:49] wow - its getting crowded... hi core_old [17:49] it works, it doesn't show a summary tho? just the result of each fight in turn... [17:50] bottom of the win - status bar? [17:50] oh yes tnx [17:50] eat that timescape lol [17:51] gareththe: What are you working on? A scanner? [17:51] hmm now if I just had a time machine... [17:51] a vampire/stone-a-majig [17:52] :) [17:52] WRP 0, <1 [17:52] DAT #tminus [17:52] the newer the bench mark, the more embarrassing my score ;) [17:53] *g* [17:53] that's ok, you'll become better :) [17:53] you beat my best tries on sal *g* guess i should continue loosing score, too [17:54] hehe [17:58] maybe i should again send an competitive warrior on sal just to curb your enthusiasms [17:58] sal-b, that is [18:00] have mercy lol [18:00] ares: You could optimize your warriors against those that you already have on the hill [18:01] Lots of interest in nano today :) [18:01] what do you guess, how much score would optimizing gain on sal94-b [18:01] ares: depends on your warriors [18:02] if it is about 5 points, i need to find better strategies... [18:02] sf: Yes and I hope you'll send new warriors, too :) [18:03] ares: different warriors respond differently on optimizing [18:03] okay, i will give it a try [18:03] youd better show me the source of you warrior first, before trying optimization [18:03] ares: Optimizing against fsh94nop might be a better idea though [18:04] thx, fluffy, and mizcu: where to send to? [18:04] edit test.red [18:04] erm [18:04] wrong window [18:05] so i still have this one in storage.. [18:06] google says my browser's cache is full! [18:06] eh? [18:07] mizcu: i'd like to show you 2 or 3 warriors... [18:07] impossible is doing well has gnik been here? [18:08] ares: mail them to me, mizcu a mbnet fi [18:08] sf_ghoul: No :( [18:14] ah, the love-hate relationship i have with this experimental paper [18:14] well, not exactly experimental since i have once sent a version to koth, it socked [18:14] to 94nop? [18:14] y [18:15] In which way is it experimental? [18:15] ask Metcalf, i am not planning to tell anyone else ;) [18:16] it is good against scanners, but has no anti-imp ability [18:17] hmm [18:18] I've sworn not to touch 94nop any more this year [18:18] and try some other hills [18:18] so far I'm stuck with nano [18:19] mail out, mizcu [18:19] mail in, ares [18:25] * sf_ghoul wonders how to make a scanner/imp [18:31] nyarly impossible [18:31] oneshot/imp is possible [18:33] mizcu: how are you goning to analyze my warrios - for what will you be looking? [18:34] i just look at the code, and think (or pmars) their behaviour [18:34] Mizcu: http://sal.math.ualberta.ca/warrior.php?key=nano&id=4299 [18:34] sf: probably a add/jmz to a imp and gate [18:43] Join: fiveop joined #corewars [18:43] Hi fiveop [18:48] mail out, ares [18:48] ah! :-)) [18:58] MSG: Quit: Lost terminal [19:03]