[00:28] Join: baudchan joined #corewars [00:38] Join: flyduck joined #corewars [00:39] flyduck: explain, "qclear"? [00:40] a quick-clear, i guess? im not sure, i saw it mentioned in the strategy field of a warrior on KOTH@SAL, i believe [00:41] http://sal.math.ualberta.ca/hill.php?login=794&key=94b [00:41] look at some of doom's warriors [00:41] it has it there [00:42] i see no qclear :) [00:42] ohh, i was misreading it :o [00:42] qlear [00:42] heh [00:42] well, what is that? do you know? [00:42] but as metcalf explained in the logs, its probably a qscan w/ clear as attack, followed by (something..) [00:43] whats a qscan.. ? :) [00:43] scan that doesnt loop [00:43] oh.. interesting! [00:44] unfortunately that means that a qscan is really big, and scans only a couple instructions [00:44] lot of modern warriors do a quick qscan before following with rest of the opponent [00:45] there are couple different versions of qscans, but the easiest to understand is IMHO seq 100, 200 | mov #100, found | seq 300, 400 | mov #300, found | more seq/mov -pairs | jmz warrior, found [00:46] and after this, decoding and an attack of some type [00:46] (in this case decoding is just checking the instruction at found, and one at found+100. With more elaborate qscans, the decoding becomes more complicated) [00:53] i get it :) [00:54] thats a quite effective scan :o it just takes up a lot of space [00:57] MSG: Ping timeout: 240 seconds [00:58] now, another question... [00:59] is a core-clear just an imp (spiral/etc) or is it different? [00:59] completely different [00:59] ohh ok :o [00:59] what is it? [01:00] coreclear is a component (or a warrior) which wipes the whole core, usually with dat's [01:00] like a dwarf..? [01:00] eg. mov 2, <-1 | jmp -1 [01:01] coreclears vary in complexity from simple (like that) to medium (clears that wipe the core multiple times with different bombs) [01:20] hrm [01:21] hi bvowk [01:21] how's it going mizzer? [01:21] average [01:21] been fattening myself up for couple days [01:28] I think I'm the only guy who's lost weight over xmas. [01:30] MSG: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep [02:23] Join: fish joined #corewars [02:24] AndrewBC, whats up :P [02:32] MSG: Remote host closed the connection [03:57] Join: baudchan joined #corewars [04:13] MSG: Ping timeout: 240 seconds [04:30] Join: AndrewBC joined #corewars [05:09] sup AndrewBC :P [05:12] Heya flyduck [05:13] How's it going? [05:14] pretty good, yourself? [05:15] doing alright, just got off of work :) [05:15] Have you made any progress with a new direction, if that's what you chose to do? [05:23] well im keeping my paper settup, but trying to stick in a new attack [05:24] something more effective than the imps/clears ive been working with [05:25] hmm [05:28] How restricted are you in lines? [05:31] well im not doing nano/tiny, but i want to keep it small in general so its less susceptible to attack [05:32] yeah [05:42] are you working on anything? [05:47] well, not really, just the basics still [06:05] ooooh, I just made something quite nasty [06:05] a nice little 2 line combo that is very anti-scanner [06:06] MOV 1, -1 | DJN -1, <0 [06:09] wonder how well it will do on the hill [06:10] oh ouch [06:11] hmmm, it rarely ties, at least. [06:12] whats that do?:o [06:12] wont that just mov to one location? [06:14] nah, it bombs backwards [06:15] MOV 1, @-1 ? [06:15] er [06:15] MOV 1, @1 ? [06:15] specifically, it bombs with what ends up being DJN.B -1, <-1 [06:16] which, with so many b fields not being 0, scanners will do poorly against it, I think [06:40] lets see how this does... [06:41] :D [06:42] which one? [06:42] which hill, rather [06:42] instead of doing <0 [06:42] try something like <-1000 [06:42] then the djn stream will start far away from you [06:42] though seriously if you guys keep submitting so many requests to the hill everything is gonna eventually age right off and there'll be no competition ;p [06:43] beginners :P [06:43] me too, but i try not to spam the hill :\ [06:43] there are packs of warriors you can download to test your stuff against [06:44] i didnt think submitting aged other warriors on the hill, though [06:44] every time a warrior gets submitted [06:44] the hill age goes up by 1 [06:44] I didn't know there was an age limit [06:44] on the beginner hill there is [06:44] it's 50 [06:45] though it seems [06:45] ah, I'm allll about the nano [06:45] the hill isn't aging if the warrior doesn't make it on? [06:45] i don't know the details D: [06:45] i was looking at the ages of the other warriors and my submissions didnt seem to make them go up [06:45] ah ok [06:45] they aren't going up if you don't make it on the hill [06:46] i keep putting off writing a scanner [06:46] do it! do it now! [06:46] i should but when start i get bored [06:46] :P [06:46] ah, well, that can't be helped [06:46] nah, i've just got a bad case of declining motivation [06:46] hehe [06:46] i dont think my latest submission will fare too well [06:47] it goes about like this .|`-.______ [06:48] 73.5 :o [06:48] better than i thought [06:48] now for a modification... [07:00] this should be better :o [07:00] also, myndzi, i was unaware you could download warrior packs [07:06] okay, so, query [07:06] when challenging a hill, do you fight every warrior on the hill at once, within the core, or 1vs1 each of them? [07:08] oh hey [07:08] found a page of bvowk's [07:08] hee hee [07:12] holy crap [07:12] 152k of his nano warriors [07:22] still extracting... [07:24] AndrewBC, you always fight 1v1 to my knowledge [07:25] corewars isnt defined for more than 1v1 battles [07:25] flyduck, okay [07:25] oh [07:25] whats the url for that page btw :p [07:31] MSG: Quit: flyduck [07:37] well I can't give it to you if you leave! [07:40] as you can see by the output of a hill challenge [07:40] you fight against each warrior [07:40] (and yourself?) [07:40] o.o; [07:40] myself? woah [07:40] that's deep. [07:41] you are scored, then the warriors are arranged by score on the hill and the bottom one removed [07:41] I feel like I should say something meaningful, or philosophical, or maybe both. [07:41] ... cheese is good. [07:41] that's ... the best I've got. [07:42] i guess thats why the call this Random lol [07:42] also, extracting bvowk's collection of warriors has literally made every other task besides mIRC not respond [07:42] lol. [07:42] using Windows to extract the zip? [07:42] WinRAR [07:42] huh [07:42] Yeah. [07:43] Though, now it's in the move phase, because I stupidly did the drag-n-drop method [07:43] so it's moving from temporary memory to the actual spot [07:43] WinRAR is silly like that, trusting windows to actually handle this properly [07:44] i don't think winrar extracts like that [07:44] "Move a metric ton of files, Windows, and be quick about it!" [07:44] you drag and drop it, it's gonna just create them where you dropped them [07:44] Windows: "OKay! efohrvikefbvjebfvj!" [07:44] on the other hand [07:44] Nope, it extracts to a temporary directory [07:44] MSG: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep [07:44] 152k of warriors that are that small [07:44] lol. [07:44] that's a lot of file creation going on [07:44] yeah :x [07:44] i don't believe that [07:44] i've watched folders get extracted before [07:45] you don't get partial files if it's extracting to a temp dir then moving [07:45] usually it's too quick to see [07:45] that's because no bits change hands, just file system entries [07:45] but still it is a pointless practice [07:45] * myndzi shrugs [07:45] but, once my system is not hijacked, I will find proof [07:46] proof for or against me, but either way [07:46] isn't there some sysinternals app that logs file access and stuff like that? [07:46] not just shows open handles [07:47] Bah, that'd be overkill [07:47] I'm thinking more like just googling it, because if it does do it, no doubt someone has blogged about how stupid an idea it is [07:47] or, how it's actually a good idea and some arcane reason why [07:49] i think you're just confusing things [07:49] the temp folder then move is something browsers, or at least internet explorer, does [07:49] hmmm? it could be [07:49] it saves to the temp folder, then moves to the destination [07:49] firefox saves to the destination then renames [07:49] well, explorer.exe probably does it as well [07:49] Join: baudchan joined #corewars [07:50] nah, just cause they are similar in name doesn't mean they do the same thing [07:50] that's not what I was implying [07:50] the reason IE does it is because the temp folder is the cache [07:50] explorer doesn't use a cache [07:50] not in that sense at least [07:50] well it would either be that or winrar [07:51] i guess they figure users won't know what to do with a partially downloaded file [07:51] winrar has no reason to do it either [07:51] i'm not sure where you got the idea :P [07:51] but then again, i'm probably wrong [07:51] as for confusing iexplorer with this, I don't think is very likely, as I'm not using iexplorer, but opera, and would like to think I wouldn't confuse saving with extracting and moving [07:51] i didn't mean that [07:52] I misunderstood [07:52] i mean, i'm not like "hey you! learn the difference between a cdrom and a cupholder!" [07:52] :P [07:52] hrhrh [07:52] you know, I think explorer crashed [07:52] ah [07:53] this is taking way too long for even this many files [07:53] I used to have the same problem with WinRAR and running out of space on my C drive. I found that if you drag and drop files from the archive it will extract to a temp folder and then copy to where ever you want it, but if you use the "Extract To" button and let it create a new sub-folder where the file is it won't use a temp folder. It'll just extract directly to that folder. I don't know if this helps you, just an observation I made a few years ago. [07:54] Agent_007, this doesn't work. I think it's a windows level operation that creates the temp file when you drag and drop, hence you should extract in winrar. <- different thread [07:54] that appears to have been a mistake though [07:55] there's another claim that changing the temp path in winrar's options changed the extract location [07:55] either way 'exctract to' seems to be the way to go [07:55] extract* [07:56] 80,69722378Why doesn't WinRAR delete its temporary files in the Windows temporary folder? [07:56] 80,69722378This happens when you use drag and drop to extract files or open archived files with an external viewer. In such cases files may still be in use when closing WinRAR and moreover, there is no reliable way to detect if the external program still needs these unpacked files. So WinRAR does not delete them immediately. Instead, when you run WinRAR the next time, all temporary files older than one hour [07:56] 80,69722378will be deleted. [07:56] 80,69722378If you do not want to involve the temporary folder when extracting files at all, use either the "Extract To" command in the WinRAR shell or the "Extract To" item in the archive context menu instead of drag and drop. [07:56] apparently it's for compatibility with other applications [07:56] when you aren't dropping it to a location [07:56] since i guess there's no difference to winrar whether you are dragging it to a "location on the hard drive" or "open in this program" [07:57] see? i knew i'd be wrong after putting up such a fight :> [07:57] but then again i only ever use extract here/extract to [07:57] bah, there's nothing wrong with being wrong [07:58] also, hah, [07:58] I made the mistake of minimizing mIRC [07:58] sooo, was just about to restart, due to proc exp not popping up, when suddenly whatever was stalling my system finished. [08:00] lol [08:00] you think that was bad, try extracting something from zipfolders some time [08:00] the same task you just performed would take a week [08:00] with completely unusable computer [08:00] it is absolutely amazing how horribly they failed with that [08:01] heh [08:04] never used it, but it sounds like fail [08:04] MSG: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep [08:33] oh, it has its uses [08:34] it's not too bad if you're compressing a single file under 10k [08:34] :P [08:45] :P [08:45] yeah, sounds useful ... NOT [09:10] Hmmm... [09:13] Heya Metcalf [11:01] Hmmmmmmmm, let's hope this one makes it :X [11:01] Good luck :-) [11:02] Thanks! :) [11:03] Shoot, 54% W, 45% L [11:03] and 1 % tied [11:03] Nano is quite a tough hill :/ [11:05] Yes, I like nano [11:05] Have you read the issues of nanoWarrior? [11:05] oh, there's a nano-specific one? [11:05] * AndrewBC runs over and shakes Metcalf in his excitement [11:06] bookmarked [11:19] it's clear that I need to work on my paper skills [11:26] Okay, it's way too late (early) and my eyes are burning. Time for bed. But, there is always tomorrow! [11:47] Okay, I couldn't resist the call [11:48] :-) [11:48] Not sure if I'm on to something or not [11:49] What are you writing? [11:51] modifying a simple scissors example, is all [11:51] ... by you [11:51] :-) [11:51] Hah, I didn't realize that was your blog post until just now [11:52] Is that the one about hostile programming? [11:52] yup [11:52] Where did you see it? It's in several places :-) [11:53] googling "core wars scissors" yielded it as #1 result, actually [11:53] I was just reading the newsletter about how paper and paper/clear has taken over the hill pretty much, so I decided I would look into this scissor thing [11:55] The only problem is scissors are not very good against paper on the nano hill [11:55] Because size 5 makes it difficult to write good scissors [11:55] Hmm [11:55] Unless someone finds a beter nano scissors :-) [11:56] Well, I think there's some limitation in the language needed to perform scissor-type functions that have been bypassed with paper things [11:58] therein lies the challenge, I guess [12:24] woah [12:25] dramatic change, upon changing the step from 4 to 5 [12:26] 25% win against one of bvowk's evolvelings when step is at 4, and 62% win when it's at 5 [12:28] * AndrewBC crosses fingers [12:30] Drat~ [12:30] * AndrewBC eyes his tilde key suspiciously [12:31] Hmmm~~~ [12:31] * AndrewBC eyes Metcalf suspiciously [13:14] * AndrewBC crosses fingers again [13:14] :-) [13:15] Drat, I'm right on the cusp, it seems lik [13:15] like* [13:17] I give up for now, will let concepts sink in for a bit before embarking anew [13:17] Gnight! [16:30] hrm. [16:49] to ye too [17:11] Hmmm... [17:12] Hmm!!! [17:15] hey met. [17:15] 'sup? [17:15] mizzer. [17:16] im still baffeled on whats wrong with my warez [17:17] when i try a simulated p2p traffic over at a website researching what isp's manipulate traffic, i get full speeds out [17:17] but in practise, nearly all connections die after moving <128 Ko [17:18] now, uTorrent recently released an alpha-version with different protocol, and i can get full speeds to those two clients using it [17:19] so your isp isn't blocking that one site? :) [17:19] so i have this feeling that an ISP that hasnt given a crap about user's p2p before are now shaping my TCP-traffic in a weird way [17:20] isnt a firewall problem, not a client problem, next thing i guess would be updating the network-adapter drivers (which are newest..) [17:21] i actually upgraded my dsl-boxes firmware too [17:22] but i havent bothered to take any radical actions since my downloads work at 100% speed, its only upload which is throttled [17:22] hrm. [17:22] that seems like a strange thing to do. [17:23] although, if you're filling your download pipe 100%, you're not dropping your acks from the upload side are you? [17:24] so you don't see the acks from the other end of your uploads and you end up dropping things on the floor? [17:24] i am not choking my connection [17:24] I used to traffic shape my bittorrent in funland to keep an ack channel [17:25] keep things flowing better. [17:26] i keep Torrent roof capped @100k which still leaves 100k for me or the FTP-server [17:27] ahh. [17:27] (upload is unroofed, because i am not a gotta-collect-them-all warezer) [17:27] no, no, no [17:28] download unroofed, silly me [17:28] heh [17:28] fingers faster than brains.. [18:51] brrraaaaaiiiiinnnnnnsssss [18:52] you know, at some point I'm probably going to just go over to the dark side and evolve warriors [18:57] heh [18:57] the dark side? [18:57] uh, yeah :P [18:58] you know it's the dark side, don't pretend [18:58] it's not the dark side, we borg are just typecast. [18:58] we're really peace loving computers who just want to make warriors. [18:59] Pfft. [19:00] evolving is kinda fun. [19:00] I'm tempted :P [19:00] my programming skills in other areas are greater than my redcode skills [19:01] what do you write code in? [19:01] mainly python [19:01] pyCorewars is pretty slick. [19:01] Oh? [19:01] yeah.. [19:01] it's fast too. [19:02] can't seem to find it [19:08] www.math.ualberta.ca/~bvowk/files/PyCorewar-0.2.0.28.tgz [19:08] jnsl-1.1.tgz in the same directory is my nano evolver. [19:08] thank ye kindly [19:08] if you're curious.. in python.. requires PyCorewar [19:09] vewy interesting [19:09] will definitely check it out [19:11] it's pretty simplistic. [19:17] hah, nice [19:17] valhalla [19:17] I take it those do well, then [19:18] that's the benchmark.. [19:19] the best go there are become what the others are measured against. [19:19] * AndrewBC nods [19:19] your readme is pretty informative [19:20] sarcasm? :) [19:21] no, you detail the process well [19:21] often I find that documentation included with a project lacks an overview of the process, at an abstract level [19:21] it helps [20:14] Join: baudchan joined #corewars [22:17] hrm. [22:18] Hmmm... [22:20] greetings met. [22:20] 'sup? [22:21] Hi Bvowk [22:21] I've been busy all day putting together information from various sources about some caves [22:25] sounds good. [22:26] been caving over the holidays? [22:27] No, but maybe in January [22:38] spelunking? [22:44] I think only Americans call it spelunking ;-P [22:45] Eep! My yank-hood is showing! [22:45] damn yanks! [22:45] where's my pitchfork and torch!? [22:46] * AndrewBC blushes furiously and covers his shame [22:47] Join: alexeld joined #corewars [22:47] Hi Alexeld [22:48] Hello. I was contacted on Twitter, something about a Corewars community existing here? [22:49] Are you completely new to corewar? [22:49] I'm not _that_ new, no. [22:49] I understand the concept, and what the MARS is. [22:49] :-) [22:49] I've never written a bot, and I'm not a Redcode hacker. [22:50] There's about 30-40 regular players and lots of occasional participants [22:50] I'm doing a University thesis which is largely Assembler, so the JMP shouldn't be too far from ASM to Redcode, right? [22:51] It's pretty similar. There are no registers in redcode. All operations have 2 operands, a source and desitination [22:51] Sounds simple enough. [22:52] I've lost my Linux box in favour of a Macbook – I assume I can still run an environment? [22:52] Can you compile something? [22:53] I'm not familiar with the Mac software available [22:53] Yep, this may be a Macbook but I do a lot of compilation with it. [22:54] yeah.. [22:54] It's more of a BSD box than a Macbook ;) [22:54] you can run it from your macbook [22:54] I think it's even in macports [22:55] Argh, macports is irritating. I've set up and installed that application numerous times, all of which have been incorrect, which makes little/no sense. [22:55] I'll have a poke around now and see if I can get something built. [22:57] I assume you should try to compile the standard version of pMARS http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=3452 [22:57] Unless anyone suggests different. There might be some advice in rec.games.corewae [22:57] corewae EQU corewar [22:57] yeah.. pmars compiles with no issues on my mac. [22:58] Lovely [22:58] I'll try right now [23:03] :-) [23:04] Just 1 error – 'Undefinedd sumbols: _sighandler [23:05] I can't help sorry, I just downloaded the Windows binary. [23:05] That's fine, I'll poke around. [23:08] FatalC is a Corewar Goddess :-) [23:11] The Twitter lady? [23:13] Join: sh0ne joined #corewars [23:15] Metcalf, are you using CoreWin or pMars SDL? [23:15] or something else I'm not aware of [23:16] Hello [23:17] Hiya sh0ne [23:21] Metcalf: I have pmars for Windows running :) [23:22] im running pmars 085 for dos.. i dont like SDL because i always have to resize it to have enough space in debug mode [23:22] hm, well that could be fixed easily enough, methinks [23:24] AndrewBC: I use pMARS SDL [23:24] So I can call it from my own programs [23:24] alexeld: yes, the twitter lady :-) [23:24] Hi sh0ne [23:25] Metcalf, hmm, maybe I should try to fire it up. The dos/windows versions that are compiled were not for 64bit it seems. Heh. [23:25] There's various old versions of pMARS at http://corewar.co.uk/pmars but no source [23:35] Guys, what's a nice example of a Redcode bot that'll work with nMars? The examples I'm following don't seem to work at all. [23:35] Most should work [23:36] The tutorial at vyznev.net seems a bit wrong. [23:36] does nmars have a compiler in it? [23:36] Everything from http://users.ociw.edu/birk/COREWAR/koenigstuhl.html will work [23:36] (not wrong, but incompatible) [23:36] What error do you get? [23:39] An unhandled exception. The 'imp', is simply "MOV 0, 1", yet the most basic template in nMars starts with `ORG start' [23:41]